Resource SV OU Teal Mask Viability Ranking Thread

[ausma]

DLC is around the corner but I will try to conduct one last vote to tweak the VR before then!

To elaborate on this, because I updated this at an awkward time, this is what will be happening: instead of having a formal vote on everything, I'm going to make it a more informal thing where VR council members can add Pokemon that they feel deserve to be tweaked or discussed. Once we're a couple days out I'll alert the council to vote proper and then I'll finalize the OP before DLC2.

As such, if there's a Pokemon you feel passionate about retooling before we transition into the next stage of SV OU, now is the time to make a big push for your nomination!!

 

[That_Dwayneee]

-> B+
I’m a big fan of tera fire garchomp in the current meta (tera blast >>>>> fire dance btw). Dicechomp at +2 is already an incredibly threatening sweeper, and being able to use tera fire on it completely flips the rillaboom (dragon fire is a good stab combo) and fairy matchups into your favour. Great tusk is 2hkod by scale shot after a boost and struggles to ohko it in return without ice spinner (and, again, tera fire is an option if you’re feeling ballsy). It’s not perfect, obviously, it needs 2 scale shot boosts to outspeed booster val, is heavily neutered into rillaboom if you want to use tera on something else, and needs to be careful about clicking its strongest stab move thanks to kingambit. Still though, I believe the threat of this set in combination with the options of tankchomp and even chain chomp and hazard setting and wallbreaking options respectively warrant a small rise.

-> A-
As always, lando t sports incredible versatility between sets. Physically defensive sets with rocky helmet are eating well right now, being one of the tier’s best options into choice band rillaboom as it threatens heavy chip damage on the moves it wants to click the most while providing stealth rocks and pivoting for the team, setup sets with sub, eq, bu or sd, and one of stone edge or smack down are also decent, as the tier is strapped for options to take earthquakes that are that strong, despite how niche these sets are, and lastly choice scarf seems to be having a small rise, as tera flying tera blast is an incredible option to have for lando t on offence - having good power even despite the lack of any boosting items - while maintaining the incredible pivoting qualities of defensive sets in intimidate + uturn.

-> A-
Torn t’s utility is incredible, between uturn, knock off, speed control, and it’s own high power stab I believe that av sets are genuinely good at standing up against some of the high powered threats in the metagame right now - most notably iron valiant - however it would be a disservice for me not to mention np torn, a set that takes the incredible power of stab flying moves and gives torn the spA to match it, while maintaining longevity and team utility thanks to regenerator making it care very little about eating burns, and having an open move slot for a utility move like knock off or taunt as it only really needs bleakwind storm and heat wave for attacks.

 

[JeebusMcFunk]

to C or something. Hear me out

It has magnet pull and can OHKO Kingambit or Heatran and 2HKO Corviknight or at least do around 72-86% damage on a single hit (PhysDef build Corv, can also 97.2 - 115.2% when under Tera Electric). Can also OHKO Choice'd Dhengo and has 56% to OHKO NP or Air Balloon builds (keep in mind it can also BE OHKO if Ghold is using Focus Blast and hits). Against Iron Valiant it hits for 78.8 - 92.7% with Wild Charge or OHKO under Tera if you choose electric. Believe it or not it survives a Razor Shell (84 - 99.6% ) from lead Samurott-H and can OHKO in return, but it will die against a SD Samurott-H unless you Tera. Also is safe to have out against Greninja if you Tera and can OHKO with either Fighting or Electric in return. Also absolutely forces Zapdos to switch out. Can also OHKO Iron Moth under Tera Electric and survive any attack and can OHKO Torn-T or Iron Val if you manage to catch them on switch in. He can also OHKO Ogerpon-W AND Ogerpon-C under tera electric and survive anything they have from any set.

The set would be Banded Wild Charge - Brick Break - Earthquake/High Horsepower -Heavy Slam/Flame Punch
24 HP
252 Atk
228 Spe
Jolly
Tera: Electric (above reasons)/Fighting (which can halt a sweep from Kingambit at 2x Swords Dances)

There's multiple other calcs I can run but I am not going to sit here and act like it's some meta defining or even "GOOD" mon. He can do a neat trick against 2 top tier and 1 good mons and, if you choose to use your Tera on him, can be quite a threat to multiple others. That is pretty tera reliant but at the same time it can easily be worth it if you see a couple of these mon on the same team. The fact is that it CAN be played in OU for a specific niche and thus I believe deserves a C rank

Edit: because there seems to be confusion I never stated ghold could be affected by magnet pull but I was giving the calcs to show he can easily win the mu. I feel like this and the multiple other calcs I ran still merits a very low rank in ou

 

[That_Dwayneee]

to C or something. Hear me out

It has magnet pull and can OHKO Kingambit or Heatran and 2HKO Corviknight or at least do around 72-86% damage on a single hit (PhysDef build Corv, can also 97.2 - 115.2% when under Tera Electric). Can also OHKO Choice'd Dhengo and has 56% to OHKO NP or Air Balloon builds (keep in mind it can also BE OHKO if Ghold is using Focus Blast and hits). Against Iron Valiant it hits for 78.8 - 92.7% with Wild Charge or OHKO under Tera if you choose electric. Believe it or not it survives a Razor Shell (84 - 99.6% ) from lead Samurott-H and can OHKO in return, but it will die against a SD Samurott-H unless you Tera. Also is safe to have out against Greninja if you Tera and can OHKO with either Fighting or Electric in return. Also absolutely forces Zapdos to switch out. Can also OHKO Iron Val under Tera Electric and survive any attack

The set would be Banded Wild Charge - Brick Break - High Horsepower -Flamethrower
24 HP
252 Atk
228 Spe
Jolly
Tera: Fighting (which can halt a sweep from Kingambit at 2x Swords Dances)/Electric (above reasons)

There's multiple other calcs I can run but I am not going to sit here and act like it's some meta defining or even "GOOD" mon. He can do a neat trick against 2 top tier and 1 good mons and, if you choose to use your Tera on him, can be quite a threat to multiple others. That is pretty tera reliant but at the same time it can easily be worth it if you see a couple of these mon on the same team. The fact is that it CAN be played in OU for a specific niche and thus I believe deserves a C rank

Ghold, as a ghost type, is not trapped by magnet pull

 

[Srn]

Ok folks hot take time:
Torn-t is being overhyped to hell, and it should not rise. In fact, it should drop B+ --> B

Here's the thing about Torn-T
1) Zapdos exists.
2) It doesn't really check the grass types it's supposed to, or even Zamazenta.
3) It's not good speed control, despite sitting at base 121 speed.

For the sake of context, let's assume I'm talking about the Offensive Utility set here:
Tornadus-Therian @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fire / Flying / Steel / idk
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
- Bleakwind Storm
- Heat Wave / Taunt
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Speed is faster than Ival at +0, needs max special attack to actually defeat Knock Off absorbers, rest in hp. You can go faster than Cinderace if you want idc.

So let's go step by step
1) Zapdos is a god damn menace and forcing a Knock off on it is not good enough to justify using Torn-T. Between clicking Knock Off and U-Turn, you are basically gauranteed to proc static and become largely useless. Tera Electric is not worthwhile to offset this (Pinkacross tried) and Protective Pads is also not worthwhile because then you aren't Boots and you take rocks which largely cuts off your Regenerator. Just look at this recent OUPL battle where Unamed has sdef heatran+glowking+torn-t and Laroxyl brings your usual Volt/Hurricane/Twave/Roost zapdos. Zapdos literally outlives glowking, outlives heatran, gets free real estate on torn-t, and paralyzes all 3.
Bros team is somehow weak to Zapdos despite having Glowking+Sdef Heatran To justify using a mon that lets in Zapdos scot-free like Torn-T, you've gotta have some real good benefits instead (Like Tusk rapid spin), but Torn-t doesn't deliver on that front either.

2) So you want to check ye ol Rillaboom with a Torn-T? I have bad news for you bucko:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 204-240 (66 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 152-179 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 245-288 (79.2 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What this means is that Torn-T can not even switch in safely as Tera Grass Glide can 2hko, or if they Knock Off and you lose boots, then Wood Hammer will kill you after rocks. Or they can just tera grass and OHKO you from full.

So how are you doing against the other grass types, Waterpon and Rockpon?
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Bleakwind Storm vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 102-120 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If Waterpon decides to Tera, it can easily get a free turn or two in your face and you can't really tera back to salvage the situation. Fake check pmuch. You can't even get a slow pivot into revenge kill like other birds could, you just lose.
Rockpon is sending this bird to hell.

As you might guess, Zamazenta is also not something you can switch into:
252 Atk Zamazenta Stone Edge vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 248-294 (80.2 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Bleakwind Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta: 258-306 (79.3 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not only do you lose 1v1, even if you correctly switch into a CC or Crunch, you are put into stone edge range and you are slower.

Even if you go max hp, you still fail to handle mons like Hawlucha who still OHKO you with +2 Acro.

3) As a "fast" mon, you are still slower than Greninja, Meowscarada, Ribombee, Weavile, and of course Zamazenta and Dragapult. It's just kind of disappointing speed control too: You can't cleanly revenge kill wallbreakers like Enamorus, Walking Wake, Samurott-Hisui, or Manaphy. And for the cherry on top, you are most certainly getting paralyzed whenever you fight a Zapdos and thus worthless as speed control to begin with.

Torn-t is a "bulky" mon that can't be relied on to check much, a "fast" mon that can't be relied on to revenge kill or outspeed much, and complete Zapdos fodder in a tier where Zapdos is one of the best mons in the tier. You need to pair Torn-t with more defensive mons, but also more fast mons, and also a rock solid Zapdos answer, to get any great mileage out of this mon. It's just not worth it bros

Also Rockpon should be A-, super scary breaker that totally rips apart Zapdos/Glowking/Ting-Lu structures and has very limited answers.

 

[JeebusMcFunk]

Ghold, as a ghost type, is not trapped by magnet pull

I don't think I said it does unless I worded it weird. I just was giving what it can hit after the initial 3 I said were pulled

 

[leng loi]

+3 Subrankings (UR to C+)
Iron Jugulis makes its grand return to the OU VR for the same reason we saw it ranked previously; this time however, it has been more notably popularized thanks to a specific team that has made waves on the ladder the past few weeks. STAB Knock Off, Taunt, STAB Hurricane, and great coverage with a massive speed boost thanks to Booster Energy makes it a great tool for Hyper Offense teams into Cinderace's Court Change and Heavy-Duty Boots spam that also packs a serious punch when it actually lands its attacks.

This is the primary UR ranking of note that has made the largest mainstream splash. The others I would advise you ask Mimikyu Stardust about as they were his suggestions!

You're welcome jugulis. Jimothy Cool

 

[ssuperiority]

Hawlucha is ranked here twice, in B- and C+

 

[That_Dwayneee]

Hawlucha is ranked here twice, in B- and C+

Let us keep schrodringer's ranking until next slate at least

 

[quacc]

Zapdos: A+ to S-

Why? I feel like Zapdos is one of the best mons in the tier, even better than Dragapult. Static, while considered unreliable, becomes somewhat reliable if you can play correctly against some contact-making mons, where multiple hits is a very high chance to get a static proc.

Zapdos is one of the main reasons why Great Tusk in this tier simply is not enough for hazard removal in the long term: you can spin maybe twice with Great Tusk, but once you get paralyzed, it becomes really hard to get hazards off, if not impossible. Being slower than ALL Gholdengo spreads also does not help its case either, where Gholdengo can switch in, take a headlong rush, and force it out with make it rain.

The other thing Zapdos does is that if you look at the metagame, there are approximately 2 reliable answers to it in OU right now: Slowking-Galar and Ting-Lu. Both of these mons also need to have a specific set, where Slowking-Galar needs to be specially defensive in order to reliably check it, and even then, you can still get a little pressured by it, especially if it is taking hazards damage; even one layer will do a good enough job. The other answer is Ting-Lu, and Ting-Lu needs to be leftovers (which is a solid answer but can get worn down over time) or rest (which is a hard counter, but forcing Ting-Lu to sleep is exploitable to some degree). Clodsire is also an answer, but it has seen less usage as of late and has fallen to UU.

The other counterplay to it is to simply out-offense it, which can be easier said than done in a lot of cases, especially when some of those offensive mons can get paralyzed.

Defensively, Zapdos answers a decent amount of mons: most sets of Great Tusk, iron defense Zamazenta (without factoring in tera electric; heat wave can deal with tera steel), Samurott-H, Rillaboom, and other lower tier mons that are rising in popularity, such as Tornadus-Therian.

As a support option, Zapdos is one of the best paralysis spreaders. This makes it an incredibly potent enabler for some of the strongest mons in the tier, such as Ogerpon-Wellspring. If a mon gets thunder waved, it almost always becomes Ogerpon-Wellspring food, and you can usually force paralysis pretty effectively, especially considering this mon gets static as well. Volt switch is always good as positioning, and can help bring in those strong attackers like the aforementioned Ogerpon-Wellspring.

Zapdos also has a ton of entry points when it comes to the metagame, being able to switch into the following mons in OU: Alomomola, Amoonguss (if spore is absorbed), Corviknight, Dondozo, thunder wave hex Dragapult, non-head smash Great Tusk, Hatterene (if you have a good answer to it in case it calm minds), Manaphy (not timid, no tail glow ice beam), Rillaboom, Samurott-Hisui, and Zamazenta. This allows Zapdos to get free positioning and chip damage as needed.

Ultimately, Zapdos is one of the best progress forcers, where the volt switches do respectable damage compared to most bulky pivots and have very few answers. Zapdos also enables some strategies pretty well, such as hazard stack, and supports lots of strong attackers that become even harder to play against, such as Ogerpon-Wellspring. While A+ is a respectable place for Zapdos to be, I personally feel like it is a bit better than a lot of the mons in the A+ tier and is on par with the mons in the S- tier.

 

[sims796]

Zapdos: A+ to S-

Why? I feel like Zapdos is one of the best mons in the tier, even better than Dragapult. Static, while considered unreliable, becomes somewhat reliable if you can play correctly against some contact-making mons, where multiple hits is a very high chance to get a static proc.

Zapdos is one of the main reasons why Great Tusk in this tier simply is not enough for hazard removal in the long term: you can spin maybe twice with Great Tusk, but once you get paralyzed, it becomes really hard to get hazards off, if not impossible. Being slower than ALL Gholdengo spreads also does not help its case either, where Gholdengo can switch in, take a headlong rush, and force it out with make it rain.

The other thing Zapdos does is that if you look at the metagame, there are approximately 2 reliable answers to it in OU right now: Slowking-Galar and Ting-Lu. Both of these mons also need to have a specific set, where Slowking-Galar needs to be specially defensive in order to reliably check it, and even then, you can still get a little pressured by it, especially if it is taking hazards damage; even one layer will do a good enough job. The other answer is Ting-Lu, and Ting-Lu needs to be leftovers (which is a solid answer but can get worn down over time) or rest (which is a hard counter, but forcing Ting-Lu to sleep is exploitable to some degree). Clodsire is also an answer, but it has seen less usage as of late and has fallen to UU.

The other counterplay to it is to simply out-offense it, which can be easier said than done in a lot of cases, especially when some of those offensive mons can get paralyzed.

Defensively, Zapdos answers a decent amount of mons: most sets of Great Tusk, iron defense Zamazenta (without factoring in tera electric; heat wave can deal with tera steel), Samurott-H, Rillaboom, and other lower tier mons that are rising in popularity, such as Tornadus-Therian.

As a support option, Zapdos is one of the best paralysis spreaders. This makes it an incredibly potent enabler for some of the strongest mons in the tier, such as Ogerpon-Wellspring. If a mon gets thunder waved, it almost always becomes Ogerpon-Wellspring food, and you can usually force paralysis pretty effectively, especially considering this mon gets static as well. Volt switch is always good as positioning, and can help bring in those strong attackers like the aforementioned Ogerpon-Wellspring.

Zapdos also has a ton of entry points when it comes to the metagame, being able to switch into the following mons in OU: Alomomola, Amoonguss (if spore is absorbed), Corviknight, Dondozo, thunder wave hex Dragapult, non-head smash Great Tusk, Hatterene (if you have a good answer to it in case it calm minds), Manaphy (not timid, no tail glow ice beam), Rillaboom, Samurott-Hisui, and Zamazenta. This allows Zapdos to get free positioning and chip damage as needed.

Ultimately, Zapdos is one of the best progress forcers, where the volt switches do respectable damage compared to most bulky pivots and have very few answers. Zapdos also enables some strategies pretty well, such as hazard stack, and supports lots of strong attackers that become even harder to play against, such as Ogerpon-Wellspring. While A+ is a respectable place for Zapdos to be, I personally feel like it is a bit better than a lot of the mons in the A+ tier and is on par with the mons in the S- tier.

I've been running into more and more with U-Turn, very frustrating to find my Ting Lu has been played, especially since it's a trapper set.

 

[Lethargic]

I'm curious as to why Iron Moth is ranked in A. When you look at all of the other A ranked mons, they are pokemon that provide support and utility, while Moth REQUIRES a TON of support and utility to function optimally. It's piss-poor defence make it extremely easy to revenge kill with priority, and even on offensive teams it's quite easy to find something that walls its extremely mediocre coverage. Being weak to rocks and a mon that can't afford to be webbed, it requires strong hazard support before the game even starts all to be in my opinion a heavily match up dependant mon that does absolutely nothing against a lot of teams. Not even remotely consistent relative to the other mons in A.

It's coverage is infamously bad, and relying on coin tosses for setup when you only get 1 chance to booster energy? No thanks. It's also a 1-trick-pony that just runs sub and/or 3-4 attacks and prays it can get lucky with fiery dance. Absolutely mediocre defensive typing as well, not the worst of all time or anything since at least you get a fairy/steel resist (fight too but 60 def LOL), but weak to shit like water + ground + rock(s), no resistance to shit like drag, ghost, dark, elec, every form of priority except for grassy glide and once again, 60 def.

Zamazenta hdb set is similar in that it usually just runs 3-4 attacks, but Zam has a WAY better speed tier, WAY better coverage, stats, setup potential, etc. I don't want to go into Zam/Val here I just understand a lot of the arguments I make against Moth could also be applied to Zam or Valiant, but those two aren't even comparable to this thing, and I think the disparity is more than 1 sub-tier. Would love to hear counter-arguments as maybe I'm missing the big picture, but this pos always gives me a wave of relief at preview tbh.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I'm curious as to why Iron Moth is ranked in A. When you look at all of the other A ranked mons, they are pokemon that provide support and utility, while Moth REQUIRES a TON of support and utility to function optimally. It's piss-poor defence make it extremely easy to revenge kill with priority, and even on offensive teams it's quite easy to find something that walls its extremely mediocre coverage. Being weak to rocks and a mon that can't afford to be webbed, it requires strong hazard support before the game even starts all to be in my opinion a heavily match up dependant mon that does absolutely nothing against a lot of teams. Not even remotely consistent relative to the other mons in A.

It's coverage is infamously bad, and relying on coin tosses for setup when you only get 1 chance to booster energy? No thanks. It's also a 1-trick-pony that just runs sub and/or 3-4 attacks and prays it can get lucky with fiery dance. Absolutely mediocre defensive typing as well, not the worst of all time or anything since at least you get a fairy/steel resist (fight too but 60 def LOL), but weak to shit like water + ground + rock(s), no resistance to shit like drag, ghost, dark, elec, every form of priority except for grassy glide and once again, 60 def.

Zamazenta hdb set is similar in that it usually just runs 3-4 attacks, but Zam has a WAY better speed tier, WAY better coverage, stats, setup potential, etc. I don't want to go into Zam/Val here I just understand a lot of the arguments I make against Moth could also be applied to Zam or Valiant, but those two aren't even comparable to this thing, and I think the disparity is more than 1 sub-tier. Would love to hear counter-arguments as maybe I'm missing the big picture, but this pos always gives me a wave of relief at preview tbh.

This analysis doesn't factor in boots sets at all which feel like a much better usage of this Mon in this climate, I really like this set for instance:

Iron Moth @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Toxic
- U-turn

This pivot set fits very well on Ting-Lu/Zapdos Spike Stacking or BO teams and also synergizes very well with Dragapult on Hex BO or Balance teams. I definitely hear what you're saying about the challenges of booster/setup sets, and I think Agility sets are straight up bad but the power and utility this Mon brings overall shouldn't be discarded, especially with setup and attacking compressed into one slot with Fiery Dance. In my experience its movepool and immediate power makes it tricky to maneuver around. Even on stall Blissey isn't a perfect answer because it can be easily haxed, CM helps a lot but usually multiple softboileds are required and if Moth crits it's all over. I also don't really see how the coverage is bad, Poison and Fire STAB make it the anti valiant incarnate, Energy Ball and DGleam are good options, Psychic is niche but applicable vs the fighting types of the tier, I won't deny 4mss but I don't think the options themselves are particularly bad. I could maybe see dropping it to A- at the lowest but certainly no lower.

 

[AK]

I thought that Lily's and Roro's "post wcop/end of the metagame" posts in the last viability ranking thread were really cool, so now that we're in a similar slate with SCL ending this week and DLC coming in 4 days I kinda wanted to do the same and make a final metagame tier list before getting into the new one.

S+

I feel like gambit was struggling for a while as the metagame had way more powercreep, encore, and just more tools to deal with it in general, however now that we've gone back into a very similar metagame to pre dlc, it's back to doing gambit things and it's as good as ever, but still has the same issue as before meaning it's very tera reliant. It however does bring value to the tier on the defensive end, even if that is limited by hazards (if you run boots you're not really able to get gambit in the mid game so it kinda loses that) and I still think the terablast fairy set is the insanely stupid and has no counterplay, that is the only reason I would be voting ban if say there was a suspect right this moment.

Zapdos is definitely close to being the best mon in the metagame, i'm surprised it isn't ranked higher in this thread but the strain it has against offense is insane (most sweepers being forced to run tera electric says alot) on top of being one of the only thing being able to switch into Rillaboom (not really as losing boots sucks but still can handle it fine.) Baxcalibur was the only thing really pressuring it pre-dlc so it's no surprise it would be even better without it, even allowing you to use bold instead of timid 301.

S-

Gholdengo's ability is plain dumb, but to me the defensive set which I always thought to be the most broken ever really fell from grace for some reason, it just feels really abusable and often feels useless against offense as it deals no damage and it's hard to set up. Offensive sets are much better at this very moment imo, especially the modest ballon on webs which often force you to weaken tinglu which sucks when things like Iron Moth are behind. I will say I think Sneasler's ban really nerfed it in my opinion.

an absolute glue, not much needs to be said here but it's just an amazing mon always, very consistent and rarely fails. Also harder to abuse due to hazard setting and random stone edge/heavy slam.

Was close to making this S tier, I think the boots status spam set is amazing and it's always a pain to get rid of it as you're most likely always forced to trade off. Garganacl also is almost non existent even if it's gained usage, it's still abusabled with turn.

People that know me know how much I love zamazenta, also debated on ranking it S+ but there are bulkier match ups where it's just useless (even if these are rare) so I ended up ranking it there. Boots sets is incredibly good, hits super hard and often dismantles offense/webs/slowkingdos teams if you click the right move. I feel like you can't really have much flexibility with it's moveset though, as all Edge/Crunch/CC/Slam are mandatory on the boots set which make it kinda predictable, but that doesn't do much as it's still almost impossible to switch into. Now on the iron defense set, I still think it's really dumb, if you have the right tera and don't match up into dondozo/pex (which don't exist) you have a great chance of sweeping unprepared and prepared teams, but all in all it's a gamble. This reminds me a ton of Sneasler where I thought the status spreader set was amazing for the tier and it was a shame it had to go because unburden was way too cheesy. I'm not sure if it's on the same level for me, but if the boots set didn't exist i'd probably be the biggest advocater for a ban. All in all, really great mon, love you zama.

A+

Won't get into it too much as we all know what valiant does, think the boots set is not as good as it used to be but it's always a pain facing it on hyper offense, the amount of sets it can run is just infuriating and you never know what to expect, but is also annoyed by a lot of things (tinglu tera, slowking, zapdos, clefable, rillaboom prio, ect). I think A+ is fair, but it's definitely close to S-.

Clefable provides some really good utility, it's a true pain to switch into with balance as nothing wants to come into knock off, one of the most consistent rocker as it's able to do it on tusk (main reason I don't have great tusk higher but i'll get into that later) alongside other moves like twave. On the other hand, calm mind sets always look good on paper especially with knock off, but not having a 16 pp recover move really hurt it as it needs to use A LOT against slowking, add to to that moonlight making it 25% only. It's still a glue and an amazing knock off absorber.

I don't think great tusk is as good as before, it's still very good but struggles with 4 moves syndrome and always abused by Zapdos. Clefable being on every team also helped a lot in that regard, since it's a pretty decent knock absorber. It still provides good utility and is a rare safe switch in to boots zamazenta. The booster energy variants are also very good, if you got the right coverage you can dig a lot of holes on top of providing a spinner to offense. Still very good, just less than before. Rillaboom forcing it to use headlong rush also is annoying.

Rillaboom is back now that we’ve gotten grassy glide, the choice band set hits like a truck and goodluck switching into it if you don’t have a Zapdos, but we’ve also seen the bulkier AV Sets from Stresh that worked very nice. It’s a true pain to deal with, especially paired with stuff like Heatran, Tusk, Hawlucha. Quickly makes them unkillable. Really good mon overall, Grassy terrain just has ton of value, sadly it enables too much cheese imo.

If it was up to me I think this mon would be gone from the tier, vert said it better than I ever will in his post in the metagame thread, but the lack of water resist makes this really really impossible to handle most of the time. I'm still not sure how you're supposed to handle it thought. Amoonguss can be mentionned but we've seen zen headbutts variants show up and i'll have more to say about Amoonguss later. It's not ranked higher because it's really cheesy, can’t wield an item which really hurts it and is weak to hazards. I don't think it provides anything for the tier defensively except maybe water absorb? but how much does that often come into play. Hate it, would love to see it go, but great breaker.

Not much to say, broken in sun, but sun has a lot of annoying mus (lead clefable, slowking) atm so it makes up for it.

it's very good at what it does, can feel really passive sometimes though but future sight + threats like zamazenta really feels broken sometimes.

A

Manaphy's weird because when building bulkier teams it can be really insufferable but then again it's hard to get going, weak to hazards, and usually doesn't come in/set up freely. I was 100% sure it would end up gone, still a good mon, maybe a bit unexplored on balance, feels it could work there with boots but that also sounds kinda bad.

Enamorus is one of the only viable scarfers, but it’s really annoying to run into slowking or clodsire then you're pretty much playing 5 on 6, has really good value with healing wish tho and I feel it works really well with threats like Gambit as most teams can't handle two Kingambits assault.

Way better than before for some reason, lack of toxic is still really significant but it doesn't feel as terrible as it did pre dlc, big reason is probably rillaboom providing grassy terrain and making it unkillable.

The only reason to use Amoonguss is wellspring, but facing gholdengo just puts you at too much of a disadvantage and it's just not worth it. I would call Amoonguss completely unviable and it would join Toxapex and Dondozo in the passive/momentum eaters pack if Wellspring didn’t exist.

There's no viable bulky water types at this moment so pyro ball can be really hard to switch into, provides court change which is a dope hazard removal, I think the all out attacker set is really good.

Wasn't sure where to rank it, realized I forgot it in the tierlist but I think this is a fair spot, huge Cornerstone enjoyer over there, true pain to switch into, same problem as wellspring though, weak to hazards and here it's even worse cause you most likely wanna keep sturdy. But used on a Cinderace and Tusk team, or an ho that can prevent rocks most of the time, I could see it being really good.

A-

Skeledirge can turn games around and unaware is a life saver sometimes, it gained alot in usage recently and i'm a fan of it, but the fact that you're always forced to run boots/slack off everytime is disheartening and makes it passive/abusable (not really tho since it has wisp).

Always felt conflicted about moth, it was a pure monster pre dlc especially in the Vert's sun, and can still be a threat if you let your tinglu get worn down by gholdengo on offense. Still can't ever get past TingLu though so that's why it's not higher, also doesn't provide any defensive utility, I thought the boots sets had potential but they're really passive and always having to morning sun is annoying.

Great all around closer, Zapdos being everywhere doesn't help it's case since once its paralysed it's much easier to handle.

I hate this mon man, hits like a truck, drops your defense with razor shell, it's really a pain to deal with and having to concede a free spike is dumb, i'm with vert get this out the tier.

Dropped in usage but the helmet set still provides good support, I was a huge fan of the sub smack down lando during OLT but pult being everywhere makes it really hard to use.

B+

Really wish it got Knock off or Scald back, but well I feel like it's even more passive than before, too hard to use without getting abused by Gholdengo or Glowking.

I think Tornadus really deserves to be ranked higher but just couldn't find it in me to do so. Nasty plot sets are def underexplored and I feel like some terablast ice stuff should have a niche, but the bulky knock off set is really good into balance, only Zapdos really comes in and loses it's boots and if it doesn't get the static on that knock off Tornadus can be really hard to switch into. Not sure why it doesn't get more usage.

Probably the best suicide lead around, always annoying to remove if your team is tspike weak, but that’s about it.

Best water resist probably, but still really passive and easy to take advantage of.

Sash Ceruledge is so good on HO man, I think it's insanely underrated and with poltergeist it hits really, really hard. Huge fan of Ceruledge, just hard to fit on non ho teams, but I promise it's good.

It was surprisingly pretty good pre dlc but struggles to find its form again. It just really regained its passivness it always had and really isn’t worth using.

Too slow, frail never does anything, same problem it always had.

Just like Sneasler I think it can cheese way more than people think. But it'll always need to tera to get past stuff like Zapdos or Gholdengo and doesn't have dire claw, just a walmart sneasler but actually possible to deal with.

Getting scald back was huge but still really passive if you run into an absorber like Ogerpon where you can't do anything really, wish passing into non water absorb match up is really good tho.

Only viable on stall, same as before, way too passive.

Does enable a lot of cheesy structure, always really annoying to deal with and I thought the grassy seed sets were super broken pre dlc, magic bounce will always have a niche and draining kiss recovery is broken.

U-Turn + Encore/Weavile was good to deal with Gliscor but now it's back to the same old shit, will forever be abused by Gholdengo, just too passive.

Always been a big enjoyer of Meowscaradra but it simply doesn't have the same impact it did, doesn't have breaker power even with guaranteed crit chances.

Underrated, most of the time forces a tera on TingLu but weak to hazards, has to run the worst item in the game. It’ll always have a niche however.

Maushold is definitely top 1 on my opp list, population bomb is broken and if you asked me I would send it to ubers. (almost broke my screen when i got 6-0'd by lead tera electric maushold the other day), broken, ban it.

Won't get into every single mon in the B/C tier, just the ones that I think have a niche, but most of them are just cheese/unviable to use because no longetivity or whatever

Best sticky web setter by far, it also most of the time does more than set the web and die, you don’t wanna get your mons paralysed and moonblast hits hard.

Would rate higher if veil was better, but it simply isn't good.

I really think that mon is good and is unexplored, can come in freely into zapdos (unless u-turn but yeah) and nasty plot run through teams, with Grass Knot/Thunderbolt and another coverage move. Always struggle a ton when matching up into it, really feels like it could actually be good but prob hard to set up and useless into offense.

Knock off will always have value, but too weak, expecting it to be top tier once triple axel is back.

Struggles to cheese like it did pre dlc thanksfully, Ogerpon is a big part of that.

Too weak, speed boost will always be valuable however.

Huge Goodra enjoyer here, can knock off and hard to switch into in general, aesf broke the metagame when he paired it with alomomola and Mimikyu Stardust made a fire team with it (even tho i'm not a fan of the walled by gholdengo set, i can see why it's good), so yeah big Goodra fan.

I always get destroyed by the SD Loaded dice set, definitely some unexplored potential there, I think it can be really good.

Fogbound showed everyone what this mon can do, but he also showed how unviable hustle can be, but great balance destroyer for sure.

Boots set definitely has some underrated potential, pretty hard to switch into.

Hopefully we don't go back to the third metagame a third time in a row, happy dlc discovery to everyone.

 

[blazikens buddy]

weezing galar from c to b+

it's phys bulk and access to will o wisp melts (pun intended) unsuspecting ogerpon's, (garganacls,if neutralising gas) ddance dragonites, (kingambit's, rillabooms, walled by fire blast if u want more coverage and offensive value, which not all teams would want but it's still there) and phys dragapult. u can completely wall zamazenta that isnt carrying heavy slam no matter what, and if u just want to spread willowisps and have neutralising gas u can put air balloon, not to mention hisuin samurott only being able put up one spike and 15% if it doesnt have f sash, and if it does it exanges 2 spikes and 30% /1 spike and 55% for its life. grass tera can be great at slowing down manaphy with clear smog+ super effective tera blast, or fire tera fire blast can be great against ghold, and levitate/ neutralising gas air balloon can wall out great tusk. not only that but it can even spread t spikes in a meta where hazards are dominant. overall it has pretty good matchups(most notable ones at the start of this comment, but the ones at the start arent even close to all of them) to some popular mons in the meta, walling ANY attempts at a phys reverse sweep before it starts/ as it starts if the right set is used.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Ok folks hot take time:
Torn-t is being overhyped to hell, and it should not rise. In fact, it should drop B+ --> B

Here's the thing about Torn-T
1) Zapdos exists.
2) It doesn't really check the grass types it's supposed to, or even Zamazenta.
3) It's not good speed control, despite sitting at base 121 speed.

For the sake of context, let's assume I'm talking about the Offensive Utility set here:
Tornadus-Therian @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fire / Flying / Steel / idk
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
- Bleakwind Storm
- Heat Wave / Taunt
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Speed is faster than Ival at +0, needs max special attack to actually defeat Knock Off absorbers, rest in hp. You can go faster than Cinderace if you want idc.

So let's go step by step
1) Zapdos is a god damn menace and forcing a Knock off on it is not good enough to justify using Torn-T. Between clicking Knock Off and U-Turn, you are basically gauranteed to proc static and become largely useless. Tera Electric is not worthwhile to offset this (Pinkacross tried) and Protective Pads is also not worthwhile because then you aren't Boots and you take rocks which largely cuts off your Regenerator. Just look at this recent OUPL battle where Unamed has sdef heatran+glowking+torn-t and Laroxyl brings your usual Volt/Hurricane/Twave/Roost zapdos. Zapdos literally outlives glowking, outlives heatran, gets free real estate on torn-t, and paralyzes all 3.
Bros team is somehow weak to Zapdos despite having Glowking+Sdef Heatran To justify using a mon that lets in Zapdos scot-free like Torn-T, you've gotta have some real good benefits instead (Like Tusk rapid spin), but Torn-t doesn't deliver on that front either.

2) So you want to check ye ol Rillaboom with a Torn-T? I have bad news for you bucko:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 204-240 (66 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Grass Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 152-179 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 245-288 (79.2 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What this means is that Torn-T can not even switch in safely as Tera Grass Glide can 2hko, or if they Knock Off and you lose boots, then Wood Hammer will kill you after rocks. Or they can just tera grass and OHKO you from full.

So how are you doing against the other grass types, Waterpon and Rockpon?
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Bleakwind Storm vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 102-120 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If Waterpon decides to Tera, it can easily get a free turn or two in your face and you can't really tera back to salvage the situation. Fake check pmuch. You can't even get a slow pivot into revenge kill like other birds could, you just lose.
Rockpon is sending this bird to hell.

As you might guess, Zamazenta is also not something you can switch into:
252 Atk Zamazenta Stone Edge vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 248-294 (80.2 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Bleakwind Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta: 258-306 (79.3 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not only do you lose 1v1, even if you correctly switch into a CC or Crunch, you are put into stone edge range and you are slower.

Even if you go max hp, you still fail to handle mons like Hawlucha who still OHKO you with +2 Acro.

3) As a "fast" mon, you are still slower than Greninja, Meowscarada, Ribombee, Weavile, and of course Zamazenta and Dragapult. It's just kind of disappointing speed control too: You can't cleanly revenge kill wallbreakers like Enamorus, Walking Wake, Samurott-Hisui, or Manaphy. And for the cherry on top, you are most certainly getting paralyzed whenever you fight a Zapdos and thus worthless as speed control to begin with.

Torn-t is a "bulky" mon that can't be relied on to check much, a "fast" mon that can't be relied on to revenge kill or outspeed much, and complete Zapdos fodder in a tier where Zapdos is one of the best mons in the tier. You need to pair Torn-t with more defensive mons, but also more fast mons, and also a rock solid Zapdos answer, to get any great mileage out of this mon. It's just not worth it bros

Also Rockpon should be A-, super scary breaker that totally rips apart Zapdos/Glowking/Ting-Lu structures and has very limited answers.

Still nomming B+ - A-

Firstly, you don't u-turn or knock off on Zap unless you are willing to Sack Torn-T, honestly don't even know why he didn't hard switch there knowing the Zapdos was gonna come in.

Secondly, that example isn't super good as he could have hard pivoted into tusk on Zapdos and avoided risking static para. Bro had no Zapdos answers and got smacked for it, clearly a teambuilding issue on their part for not having ting lu on his bulky team instead of tusk to take stuff from Zapdos since his entire team matched poorly into it and couldn't support tornadus-t. That is clearly a teambuilding issue that that player failed to address before entering OUPL.

Yeah it doesn't beat rillaboom super cleanly, nor does it beat Zama cleanly, but Tornadus-T has the longevity to remove items and that is what matters. If you click knock off into a blatant Zapdos switch like that dude did its on you. Certain mons are always annoying for it but hasn't stopped it from being in the A ranks in the other gens and natdex. Also while utility sets walk all over every bulky team that doesn't have Zapdos or something that gives it trouble.

Secondly, Zamazenta cannot afford to miss stone edge, it 2hko's tornadus-t, but if it misses it will get knocked or bleakwinded which can really screw it over as it has to risk speed drop or losing its item. Zamazenta isn't a concrete answer. Rockpon probably does take a fair bit from Bleakwind and Heat Wave and doesn't like the speed drop or burn either, and the same applies to Rillaboom. Point being, none of the mons other than Zapdos are completely safe into tornadus-t. Also if torn-t decides to go offensive nasty plot instead of utility, it can actually break through waterpon and rockpon, so it is very much more of a check than you let on since Waterpon does not wanna take a +2 Bleakwind in the slightest, and you seem to disregard nasty plot when speaking about Tornadus-T, which can allow it to beat those pokemon that it would not be able to beat with utility sets.

You seem to be disregarding offensive sets quite a bit, which can actually beat Waterpon and Rockpon, it still struggles into Zapdos but when does it not? I don't think your reasoning holds up considering how you failed to mention fully offensive sets. Tornadus-T can pick and choose counters through the different sets it can run which is another why people are nomming it for a rise, as i've seen some Sub NP sets put in work through some of Finch's matches, and it can allow it to actually beat the things the offensive utility set cannot that aren't named Zapdos or Heatran. It still needs support from teammates, but its definitely not bad and overhyped as you claim it to be.

Point being, you are underselling torn-t a small bit, and A- feels like the right place for it as it is one of the best knock off abusers in the meta even if it isn't necessarily the most defining defensive presence, it can offensively pressure a lot of fatter mons even if it doesn't always okho. Taunt + Knock shuts down a lot of set-up sweepers in the meta that it can outspeeds and can annoy a lot of mons with longevity + knock off which is what matters, its supposed to shut down bulky pokemon and knock things that aren't Zapdos.


Note: Yeah I think I spent a bit too much time on this post talking about why I disagree with a mod on his nom LMAOOOO

 

[Welcome to mars]

im glad zapdos and ting lu are A+ again, they really are great defensive pokemon

View attachment 578610

 

[Kenpwnchi]

I'm gonna say it again: promote Torn-T. Despite what is being said here, I've been using the mon since before Gliscor got banned, and it's absolutely stunning! Choice Scarf + Air Slash, along with chip damage increments from hazards, make Torn-T a fast late game sweeper (as in once the opposing team has been reduced to 50% HP or less). 30% flinches are no joke, and the opponent will, eventually, have no choice but to concede. Regenerator, along with things like Leftovers, allows Torn-T to maintain longevity, and that is what makes it an extremely valuable mon; even with mons like Zapdos around. I'd argue that Torn-T still has utility while paralyzed (under Tailwind or Spe boosts), and that in itself is a terrifying aspect.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I'm gonna say it again: promote Torn-T. Despite what is being said here, I've been using the mon since before Gliscor got banned, and it's absolutely stunning! Choice Scarf + Air Slash, along with chip damage increments from hazards, make Torn-T a fast late game sweeper (as in once the opposing team has been reduced to 50% HP or less). 30% flinches are no joke, and the opponent will, eventually, have no choice but to concede. Regenerator, along with things like Leftovers, allows Torn-T to maintain longevity, and that is what makes it an extremely valuable mon; even with mons like Zapdos around. I'd argue that Torn-T still has utility while paralyzed (under Tailwind or Spe boosts), and that in itself is a terrifying aspect.

What? You're running Leftovers over Boots on Torn-T?It's good because it's a "sweeper" that relies on everything being chipped, and full hazards being up, and also needs a scarf? You literally can't sweep with a scarf by the way that's not how the item works. The only item you can realistically run on this otherwise you have a Pokémon with no ability is Boots. 30% flinches (the same as Bite, and not a lot of things run Bite) may not be a joke if you don't want to rely on both chip and hax to actually succeed as a late game cleaner (which no A rank cleaner does by the way) but neither is missing your stab 20% of the time (which is the move you need to have if you want to do real damage to anything) and 10% of the time missing the move you need to have to hit Gholdengo and Kingambit, which is also essential for this Mon to succeed? You also mentioned no Pokémon it actually matches up well into. You're running TAILWIND in case you get paralyzed? What speed boosts? You're running Agility? Yeah no, this thing is hot garbage; a UU shitmon. It probably should be lower than it is now tbh

Still nomming B+ - A-

Firstly, you don't u-turn or knock off on Zap unless you are willing to Sack Torn-T, honestly don't even know why he didn't hard switch there knowing the Zapdos was gonna come in.

Secondly, that example isn't super good as he could have hard pivoted into tusk on Zapdos and avoided risking static para. Bro had no Zapdos answers and got smacked for it, clearly a teambuilding issue on their part for not having ting lu on his bulky team instead of tusk to take stuff from Zapdos since his entire team matched poorly into it and couldn't support tornadus-t. That is clearly a teambuilding issue that that player failed to address before entering OUPL.

Yeah it doesn't beat rillaboom super cleanly, nor does it beat Zama cleanly, but Tornadus-T has the longevity to remove items and that is what matters. If you click knock off into a blatant Zapdos switch like that dude did its on you. Certain mons are always annoying for it but hasn't stopped it from being in the A ranks in the other gens and natdex. Also while utility sets walk all over every bulky team that doesn't have Zapdos or something that gives it trouble.

Secondly, Zamazenta cannot afford to miss stone edge, it 2hko's tornadus-t, but if it misses it will get knocked or bleakwinded which can really screw it over as it has to risk speed drop or losing its item. Zamazenta isn't a concrete answer. Rockpon probably does take a fair bit from Bleakwind and Heat Wave and doesn't like the speed drop or burn either, and the same applies to Rillaboom. Point being, none of the mons other than Zapdos are completely safe into tornadus-t. Also if torn-t decides to go offensive nasty plot instead of utility, it can actually break through waterpon and rockpon, so it is very much more of a check than you let on since Waterpon does not wanna take a +2 Bleakwind in the slightest, and you seem to disregard nasty plot when speaking about Tornadus-T, which can allow it to beat those pokemon that it would not be able to beat with utility sets.

You seem to be disregarding offensive sets quite a bit, which can actually beat Waterpon and Rockpon, it still struggles into Zapdos but when does it not? I don't think your reasoning holds up considering how you failed to mention fully offensive sets. Tornadus-T can pick and choose counters through the different sets it can run which is another why people are nomming it for a rise, as i've seen some Sub NP sets put in work through some of Finch's matches, and it can allow it to actually beat the things the offensive utility set cannot that aren't named Zapdos or Heatran. It still needs support from teammates, but its definitely not bad and overhyped as you claim it to be.

Point being, you are underselling torn-t a small bit, and A- feels like the right place for it as it is one of the best knock off abusers in the meta even if it isn't necessarily the most defining defensive presence, it can offensively pressure a lot of fatter mons even if it doesn't always okho. Taunt + Knock shuts down a lot of set-up sweepers in the meta that it can outspeeds and can annoy a lot of mons with longevity + knock off which is what matters, its supposed to shut down bulky pokemon and knock things that aren't Zapdos.

You say this as if you have a choice to knock or u-turn into Zapdos, if your take is "just sack your tusk, torn isn't bad" or "torn isn't bad you just need to run ting Lu" then no this thing belongs nowhere near A rank, these are ranks for splashable Pokémon that don't need a huge amount of team support to succeed, Torn is nowhere near that description. B- is probably more accurate than where it is now.

 

[Kenpwnchi]

What? You're running Leftovers over Boots on Torn-T?It's good because it's a "sweeper" that relies on everything being chipped, and full hazards being up, and also needs a scarf? You literally can't sweep with a scarf by the way that's not how the item works. The only item you can realistically run on this otherwise you have a Pokémon with no ability is Boots. 30% flinches (the same as Bite, and not a lot of things run Bite) may not be a joke if you don't want to rely on both chip and hax to actually succeed as a late game cleaner (which no A rank cleaner does by the way) but neither is missing your stab 20% of the time (which is the move you need to have if you want to do real damage to anything) and 10% of the time missing the move you need to have to hit Gholdengo and Kingambit, which is also essential for this Mon to succeed? You also mentioned no Pokémon it actually matches up well into. You're running TAILWIND in case you get paralyzed? What speed boosts? You're running Agility? Yeah no, this thing is hot garbage; a UU shitmon. It probably should be lower than it is now tbh




You say this as if you have a choice to knock or u-turn into Zapdos, if your take is "just sack your tusk, torn isn't bad" or "torn isn't bad you just need to run ting Lu" then no this thing belongs nowhere near A rank, these are ranks for splashable Pokémon that don't need a huge amount of team support to succeed, Torn is nowhere near that description. B- is probably more accurate than where it is now.

I would love to entertain this, but I'm not sure if you're being serious or not. Torn-T, from what I've noticed, has several viable sets. The one I use has factual objectivity behind it. Not sure how you're gonna say it doesn't sweep when I've swept with it; no broom.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I would love to entertain this, but I'm not sure if you're being serious or not. Torn-T, from what I've noticed, has several viable sets. The one I use has factual objectivity behind it. Not sure how you're gonna say it doesn't sweep when I've swept with it; no broom.

Post a replay on high/mid ladder I guess, helps if you can show it in action, but that set is like meme tier no offense

Also don't run lefties, run assault vest or boots so you can safely pivot

Well, I guess there is a debate with tornadus-t, now that I think about it should just stay where it is honestly. Its got notable flaws that keep it out of A- rank due to the lack of consistency but its not honestly bad by any means and those flaws are why its not A- rank. I don't think it should be dropped, being able to spam knock off like nothing else is still very good and it can shut down stall and certain bulky mons hard since it gets taunt + knock. I do think some flaws are overstated though as technically you can pick your counters as you can tailor torn-t to beat things by running NP or sub + np if you want. It still needs a tiny bit more team support via than most things in A- rank since Zapdos is really rough for it. I guess torn-t can stay where it is for now.

 

[Kenpwnchi]

Post a replay on high/mid ladder I guess, helps if you can show it in action, but that set is like meme tier no offense

Also don't run lefties, run assault vest or boots so you can safely pivot

Well, I guess there is a debate with tornadus-t, now that I think about it should just stay where it is honestly. Its got notable flaws that keep it out of A- rank due to the lack of consistency but its not honestly bad by any means and those flaws are why its not A- rank. I don't think it should be dropped, being able to spam knock off like nothing else is still very good and it can shut down stall and certain bulky mons hard since it gets taunt + knock. I do think some flaws are overstated though as technically you can pick your counters as you can tailor torn-t to beat things by running NP or sub + np if you want.

For the record, I don't actually use Leftovers. I do use the set I mentioned, but with Choice Scarf. Thats just because I needed to outspeed mons like Dragapult. I was getting tired of that thing.

 

[Lethargic]

For the record, I don't actually use Leftovers. I do use the set I mentioned, but with Choice Scarf. Thats just because I needed to outspeed mons like Dragapult. I was getting tired of that thing.

These are viability rankings for high level and the highest level of play, if this is a strategy that performs consistently well on the high ladder (like top 100) or in tournaments that’s one thing, but anecdotes about how you’ve swept with something is meaningless without replays showing the quality of players and teams you are competing against.

 

[Kenpwnchi]

These are viability rankings for high level and the highest level of play, if this is a strategy that performs consistently well on the high ladder (like top 100) or in tournaments that’s one thing, but anecdotes about how you’ve swept with something is meaningless without replays showing the quality of players and teams you are competing against.

Fancy jargon, but you don't get to dictate what is good and what is not when all of this is subjective. If you wanna take it there, we can. I stated how I felt about Torn-T, and it is what it is.

 

[Lethargic]

Fancy jargon, but you don't get to dictate what is good and what is not when all of this is subjective. If you wanna take it there, we can. I stated how I felt about Torn-T, and it is what it is.

Getting pissy and throwing a tantrum because I disagreed with you respectfully is not going to help sway public opinion. When I said I disagreed with moth’s opinion and people laughed did I double down and throw a hissy fit? No. I responded to you extremely respectfully, and the fact that you’re getting offended says quite a lot.