Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 8: Double Trouble

[RelicanthPrimal]

well not too unsurprisingly, flutter remains as over 40 percent think its balanced by the other brokens. it was good idea doing double suspect but really was just a flutter one so dnb from above reasoning i expected ppl to think happened. if it did get the boot, maybe we could go for double suspects with hands oger, then ruins and fasc ursa. my ban it all format test suggestion remains, if we can get enough support lets make it happen

 

[ButWhyThough_2]

Flutter mane has dodged the bullet this time around

 

[Arcticblast]

Basculegion was banned with an 82.67% ban margin. If Grassy Glide Rillaboom and the Kingambit resurgence weren't enough to keep it in check, I don't think Tall Raikou and its Electric Sucker Punch will be enough either. I believe Basculegion should not even be considered for an unban when the Indigo Disk DLC is released, unless some aspect of the Pokemon is actually nerfed (probably Last Respects). This vote has clearly demonstrated that the community doesn't want Basculegion in the format. Hopefully now that there is less of absolute need to KO a Basculegion before it can move, the meta can develop a little further. RIP bozo, get outta here

Flutter Mane escaped a ban by one vote, and honestly, I think I'm okay with that. I believe banning Flutter would have been the first step towards a healthier metagame, but I still think the meta can be enjoyable with Flutter in it. It's a really, really, really good Pokemon, but it isn't unfair like Basculegion or Urshifu are. It just has a lot of stats in the right places. I do, however, think that if Flutter Mane is legal in the format, it's hard to justify the banning of a lot of other powerful Pokemon. Iron Hands, Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, and Ursaluna are all incredibly powerful and game-warping Pokemon, but I just don't think they meet the bar if Flutter Mane couldn't. If Flutter Mane is the power level standard for DOU, I genuinely don't think anything else meets that standard.



Okay, except maybe one thing. There's been a lot of discussion about Ogerpon and its colorful wardrobe, and I've seen Hearthflame come up the most as a pain point of the format. While Ogerpon-H lacks the freedom to run any item, the Hearthflame Mask still provides a sizable boost to its offenses, and it can't be removed with Trick or Knock Off. Terastallization makes this Ogerpon in particular far more immediately threatening than the other masks. While the forced Tera type and single item choice make it a little easier to account for at team preview, it can still run any number of third moves, and Swords Dance and Follow Me are two extreme ends of the spectrum that a player must keep in mind.

I actually think Ogerpon-H might not quite be broken of its own merits, but I think it pushes Tailwind offense to a dangerous extreme. Playing against these teams is a challenge on its own, but Ogerpon-H pairs incredibly well with Sunny Day Tornadus. It easily makes up for Torn's lack of immediate damage, making it very difficult for bulkier teams to survive the Tailwind turns with enough juice to take the game for themselves. A metagame that eventually devolves into "play Tornadus or play Trick Room" is a concept I don't particularly want to see happen in real time. While I personally doubt it will get that bad (this isn't Basculegion we're talking about), I think there is a genuine risk of Ogerpon-H pulling the Tailwind offense archetype toward a singular optimized framework that puts some serious strain on the rest of the format.

I would fully support a suspect test on Ogerpon-Hearthflame... eventually. We just banned Basculegion. Let's enjoy this format without a giant fish-shaped death ray in it and let things develop. I think Basculegion stopped a lot of people from experimenting with some of the new additions from Teal Mask, and I'd like to see where the format ends up in a couple weeks before we consider another suspect test.

 

[RelicanthPrimal]

If Flutter Mane is the power level standard for DOU, I genuinely don't think anything else meets that standard.

it was 1 vote from being banned so flutter is def the bar for something broken. oger h and hand suspects would be good but banning flutter first prob give better results so everyone votes with that bar in mind

 

[qsns]

Since we probably aren't updating the VR with the DLC coming soon, I wanted to post some thoughts on some IMO underrated Pokes.

HArc is so good!!! I've been inspired to use it a lot lately as it's won 5/5 of the Regulation E VGC events, and I don't think it performs that much worse in DOU. It has pretty obvious problems - Lando-T being a main one - but this is not particularly hard to work around in the builder, and it brings incredibly positive matchups into other top tier Pokemon as well as the always useful Intimidate. It comfortably switches into Flutter, Ogerpon-Hearthflame, Tornadus, and Ninetales/Baxcalibur, and can pivot in on a ton more (mostly Fire-moves). CB Rock Slide is quite scary offensively in tandem with its Fire STAB and access to ESpeed is handy in endgames. I think people are focusing way too much on the negatives on this Mon. While teambuilding, I prefer more polarized matchups this gen as you can often Tera out of the negatives and you want as strong of an answer into the high damage Brokens (Flutter, Chi-Yu, Ogerpon) as possible.

Glimm has been picking up! I know that there's a lot of historical Glimmora Enjoyers in SCL (me, bagel, eragon), so the relatively high SCL usage might be iffy, but it's seen quite a bit of success in DWCOP so far, notably going ~9-0 for Team Italy in pools. The opponent is usually scrambling to deal with it on lead, which often nets you quite a bit of tempo, free damage, and sometimes SR. Turns 1-2 of my SCL game vs Actuarily today demonstrates this well - Glimm forces 2 switches on lead, gets up hazards, and trades for itself. As with Arcanine, Rock STAB is very scary in the current metagame with any other attack to pressure the steels. Having offensive Pokemon with Protect next to it (SpA Booster/Pixie Plate Flutter, LOrb Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao) can often net you a free turn to click Power Gem as the opponent tries to ignore Glimm.

Sinistcha is quite a unique support and has seen quite high usage in DWCOP, with 31 total between its forms. It enables a lot of quirky setup styles and high tempo gameplay on bulkier offenses, allowing you to forgo using Protect as much while you heal with Hospitality. It works extremely well as an Anti-TR mode, walling normal Ursaluna while being able to reverse the dimensions. I want to highlight a set from Nails' LAIC team (i forgot who originally built it) as a possible direction for Sinistcha in DOU, as Matcha Gotcha is a really really overloaded move. I've been quite high on Will-O-Wisp in the current format and Sinistcha's STAB attack can have that on a spread healing move. The CM set leans into this as much as possible, giving you a ton of sustain while slowly pressuring opponents.

 

[Kenpwnchi]

Since we probably aren't updating the VR with the DLC coming soon, I wanted to post some thoughts on some IMO underrated Pokes.

HArc is so good!!! I've been inspired to use it a lot lately as it's won 5/5 of the Regulation E VGC events, and I don't think it performs that much worse in DOU. It has pretty obvious problems - Lando-T being a main one - but this is not particularly hard to work around in the builder, and it brings incredibly positive matchups into other top tier Pokemon as well as the always useful Intimidate. It comfortably switches into Flutter, Ogerpon-Hearthflame, Tornadus, and Ninetales/Baxcalibur, and can pivot in on a ton more (mostly Fire-moves). CB Rock Slide is quite scary offensively in tandem with its Fire STAB and access to ESpeed is handy in endgames. I think people are focusing way too much on the negatives on this Mon. While teambuilding, I prefer more polarized matchups this gen as you can often Tera out of the negatives and you want as strong of an answer into the high damage Brokens (Flutter, Chi-Yu, Ogerpon) as possible.

Glimm has been picking up! I know that there's a lot of historical Glimmora Enjoyers in SCL (me, bagel, eragon), so the relatively high SCL usage might be iffy, but it's seen quite a bit of success in DWCOP so far, notably going ~9-0 for Team Italy in pools. The opponent is usually scrambling to deal with it on lead, which often nets you quite a bit of tempo, free damage, and sometimes SR. Turns 1-2 of my SCL game vs Actuarily today demonstrates this well - Glimm forces 2 switches on lead, gets up hazards, and trades for itself. As with Arcanine, Rock STAB is very scary in the current metagame with any other attack to pressure the steels. Having offensive Pokemon with Protect next to it (SpA Booster/Pixie Plate Flutter, LOrb Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao) can often net you a free turn to click Power Gem as the opponent tries to ignore Glimm.

Sinistcha is quite a unique support and has seen quite high usage in DWCOP, with 31 total between its forms. It enables a lot of quirky setup styles and high tempo gameplay on bulkier offenses, allowing you to forgo using Protect as much while you heal with Hospitality. It works extremely well as an Anti-TR mode, walling normal Ursaluna while being able to reverse the dimensions. I want to highlight a set from Nails' LAIC team (i forgot who originally built it) as a possible direction for Sinistcha in DOU, as Matcha Gotcha is a really really overloaded move. I've been quite high on Will-O-Wisp in the current format and Sinistcha's STAB attack can have that on a spread healing move. The CM set leans into this as much as possible, giving you a ton of sustain while slowly pressuring opponents.

Glad somebody spoke on Arcanine-Hisui. I second what qsns said. Even without VGC being used as our analysis, it should be fairly easy to tell why Arcanine-Hisui is good. Especially in the SV DOU tier; a tier where Intimidate has, almost, always played a heavy role. Arcanine-Hisui has fantastic typing in Fire/Rock, despite being ×4 Ground weak, and can Tera Type into Normal to take advantage of ESpeed (being one of the only few mons to have it). By default, this makes Arcanine-Hisui, partially, immune to Flutter Mane's Ghost type STAB moves, and that's very important as of rn. Furthermore, the fact Arcanine-Hisui can't be burned, but can hit mons like Ogerpon-Hearthflame super effectively should be noted, as well.