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floober dodged the hammer lets go, my analysis is still lore accurate
Tera I feel kind of mixed about, its not broken in NDubers as compared to other metagames, and it is fun to use definitely, but occasionally it is also frustrating to keep in mind as an option. It doesn't swing games like dynamax does, but is able to flip matchups on its head in a manner no other mechanic is able to, like zyggy being able to fix its ice beam shaped hole with a stylish water type hat or zacian being able to ground blast past usual checks pdon and ndm. Though I do feel like it is positive in some cases, especially for defensive pokémon such as ho-oh and defensive arceus turning the meta from a sweepfest that ubers sometimes feels like to a slower metagame that rewards intelligent play (ignore the fact that i use gothitelle press charm button 17 times). Even though I feel mixed about it, I think that with Xern gone now I would vote DNB, sacrificing the zeomancy floober for the greater good of the metagame.
Had planned to do a more comprehensive post in the near future once SSNL and Trios wrap up either this weekend or next on the teams I've built and some general commentary on mons, sets, and archetypes that have had significant changes in viability since the Xern ban as enough time has passed that there have been some significant changes in the meta in my view. As for the survey results:
Enjoyment / Competitiveness: The degree to which both general and qualified voters enjoy the metagame is around what I expected. There is not any data showing how competitive the qualified playerbase thinks the metagame is though I don't see the score reaching significantly higher than the 7.2 it is currently. We will probably always have a couple of people giving low scores either accidently or because they're trolling which will drag the score down a fair bit since we have a small playerbase. Eledyrentrocefalo and Bobsican have done a great job leading the tier over the last 18 months and have taken an active role in both listening to and involving the playerbase in tiering discussions. Regardless of any frustrations I've with the metagame at various points over the course of the tiers history, that these three and Guard before them (RIP) have been excellent leaders have always meant that there is light on the horizon. Personally, when it comes to balance / competitiveness anything above 7 means the tier is in a pretty good place. It doesn't mean that there arn't things we can change which would make the meta better, but 7 is a good baseline to strive for in a SV tier.
Tera: The qualified response chart is perhaps the most apt way you can sum up how tera is viewed in most SV tiers with every answer being filled except for 5. My answer was a 3 and my feelings on tera are mixed. The metagame would likely be more competitive without tera. Though that isn't really reason enough for me to want to ban something I don't currently view as problematic despite voting to ban it in the past. We also play Ubers which does have a higher threshold for something being considered banworthy and that is before the higher threshold needed to ban a generational mechanic.
I agree with a lot of what BananaTimeZ said above. I don't feel tera is currently problematic. At this point in the meta a random tera type throwing a wrench into things is quite uncommon and frankly I've run into more issues with the occassional Thunder Wave on Ho-Oh than some random tera type. Zacian-C can be a bit silly at times and the coinflip regarding certain defensive teras would be the biggest reason for it to go. Otherwise tera is something I do like in the metagame. I'm completely fine with and would encourage the council to resuspect tera if they feel that there is enough support to merit doing so despite being unlikely to vote to ban it myself.
As a late addendum, I think it would be in the best interest of everyone for any potential tera suspect to happen following another survey in 3-6 weeks. Tera survived its intial suspect in an environment where there seemed to be significantly more opposition to its presence in the metagame than there is presently . If you are advocating for a tera ban it is in your best interest to ensure that tera has a relatively high chance of being banned as there is no guarantee that there will be a third test. I'd be quite surprised if we would be able to do a third test on tera should it survive a second.
Zygarde: The results on Zygarde are not surprising.Though I expected the general response to be higher than the qualified response it is still a little lower than I was expecting given the complaints about it. My position has not changed, it is a mon that is very easy to check naturally when building. Yeah tera means that Ice Beam on your Arceus isn't going to deal with it, but Judgement or just smacking it hard with a special attacker generally will. Zygarde really holds the meta together without being difficult to handle itself. If trapping sets rise in usage and consistency I'd certainly reconsider my position though the idea of a metagame without Zygarde's defensive presence frankly sounds terrible.
Zacian-C: I expected a slightly higher score than it received. I voted a 6 and have been thinking about that since. It both feels a little high and fine at the same time. The decision to vote 6 was more based on I'd be fine with a suspect and I'm not sure how I'd vote. Plenty of people have voiced their discontent publically as well as a couple people privately to me. If we were to suspect test Zacian-C it would be the first test we've had where I'm genuinely unsure how I'd vote at the outset. I don't particularly mind its place in the meta though at the same time I wouldn't be particularly upset if it were to leave. Previously I said I didn't have much of a perference whether Tera or Zacian-C were to be suspected. Currently I'm leaning towards Zacian-C as I'd like to give Tera some more time. That is my personal view and I'm aware that Zacian-C is not being currently considered for a suspect.
Shadow Tag: This result did surprise me. I expected a lot more polarization in the votes and frankly somewhere around a 2 or 3 from the general playerbase. Though I've made no secret of my views on Shadow Tag I unfortunately am quite bearish on it being banned via suspect. Even if the pool of voters for a Shadow Tag suspect only drew from those who responded to the survey, the results don't inspire confidence that it would be banned. We also have players who would qualify to vote for the suspect test who have not responded to the survey and it would be foolish to assume that they would overwhelmingly vote to ban it. Furthermore, every suspect attracts people who view the test as nothing more than an easy way to accumulate suspect votes on the way to a badge. These people do not touch the tier otherwise. Their votes are, of course, valid. I'm not suggesting otherwise or that this should be changed.
The reason I bring this up is that over the course of a suspect test you ladder up to 1550-1600ish. Anyone that has spent the bare minimum of time on the NDUbers ladder is well aware that the teams that one would encounter over the course of laddering is wholly divorced from the actual metagame. This is something of an issue for any suspect in NDUbers, but substantially more so with a Shadow Tag test.
The ladder is largely isolated from the negative effects Shadow Tag has on the metagame by virtue of Gothitelle being largely absent. This is a substantial difference from previous suspects as the effect that Tera, Koraidon, or Xerneas have is readily apparent. Unless one was to use a Gothitelle team themselves the chances of them running into it over the course of getting reqs is close to nil. Additionally, Gothitelle itself is likely to be underwhelming as unless you run into someone else getting reqs the chances of loading into more than a couple of good teams is astonishingly low. This leads to a misconception about what Gothitelle is actuallly capable of doing as it likely isn't going to do much of anything against the anime or persons favourite mon that happens to be an Uber + 5 NDUU mons teams that make up the majority of opponents during a suspect run. I don't want this to give off the impression that anyone who thinks that Shadow Tag should remain in the tier is a moron. For example, adem and I have discussed Shadow Tag and we disagree about whether trapping is inherently unhealthy. Though we disagree about whether Shadow Tag is banworthy I can understand that viewpoint.
I'm appreciative that Shadow Tag was included in the survey to begin with. It just kind of blows that I cannot shake the feeling that should the council decide to proceed with a Shadow Tag suspect that it is highly unlikely to get enough votes to be banned. I'm not aware of any alternative routes we would be able to take that comply with general tiering policy. A quickban or council vote is obviously out of the question. My ideal suspect would be some high ladder rating combined with a high gxe though that obviously does not jive with tiering policy.
Last Respects: I've only ever advocated for a Goth / Shadow Tag ban rather than trapping as a whole since the Arena Trap mons are horrible despite trapping being inherently unhealthy. The same applies to Last Respects. Basculegion simply just isn't there yet and currently is largely a matchup fish. If meta developments result in it becoming semi consistent I'm happy to chuck it out. It doesn't add anything positive to the tier, but it doesn't presently harm it.
Congrats to 09-10a for winning seasonals and deleting the post about LO Zygarde that I've had to read over 9000 discord messages about and making me do a double post.
With both seasonals and trios coming to a conclusion I wanted to make a post discussing the metagame more broadly. Before that I'd like to thank Anchor9 for both proposing and hosting the Trio tournament and R8 for hosting seasonals in addition to co-hosting Trios and providing guidance behind the scenes. National Dex Ubers has had a dearth of tournament games in recent months and it has been great to have some recently. I'd also like to shoutout Zrp200 who has been a fantastic teammate for Trios to discuss teams with and Suuicunee for subbing in and doing a great job.
I don't consider myself a top player in this tier, but I am competent. I'm not particularly competitive and enjoy building and testing teams significantly more than playing them. I didn't plan to join seasonals, but I was annoyed at not being a qualified voter for the Xerneas survey and was told top 8 or 16 in seasonals would likely qualify for future surveys so I joined my first Smogon tournament.
It has been quite a fun experience, but I really am not the biggest competitor and mentally checked out once I realized I'd be top 8 and thus qualified for the next survey despite thoroughly enjoying the meta. One of the things I didn't enjoy was feeling unable to discuss teams with many people as most of the people I'd turn to were still in the tournament. When Trios rolled around I initially did not plan to sign up though changed my mind and that has been a lot of fun despite BO1 being a horrid format.
Xerneas was banned fairly early on in seasonals and I presumed that would spurr a lot of building fervor. This has unfortunately been far from the case and a lot of teams used in both tournaments are teams from the previous meta rather than innovative ones seizing on Xerneas' absence that I expected.
This is the first public showcase of higher level play (being very gratuitous with that description at times) we have had in quite some time and these tournaments don't paint an accurate pictures of the metagame. If one was to watch replays from these tournaments they'd be left with the impression that National Dex Ubers is a stereotypical HO meta where everything else is struggling to keep up when that is far from the case. HO while good, is far from the metagame dominating force that these replays suggest.
The last and deciding game of Trios will be on Wednesday and I'm somewhat disappointed because I wanted to see the Zrp200 v Eledyr Sheeptacular.
Teams
Before discussing recent metagames trends and developments I'd like to post something of a teamdump. In the spoiler below I've posted two teams that I built before Xerneas was banned. Every other team was built post Xerneas ban with the last team being built on Friday. Every team listed is one I'd consider bringing to an important game. There are certainly some tweaks that can be made, but they're solid enough. The exception is the last one which was made mostly for R8 but changing one mon probably makes it fine.
I do not have any meaningful commentary on these teams to add beyond what was written in the teambuilding competition when these teams were originally posted. Looking at them now there are some minor changes I'd consider but they're also fine enough as is.
Ferrothorn is a mon I've always quite liked, but never got around to building a good team with during the Xerneas era. Ferrothorn really only 'checked' Xerneas on paper as almost every set had a very easy way around it. This lead to a lot of the Ferrothorn teams I built being either a bit fishy or inconsistent for my playstyle at the time so I shelved the idea for the time being. Once Xerneas left the tier I decided it was time to see if I could crack the durian.
This is the first team I built following the Xerneas ban and still one of my favourites to use. It started off as what can only be described as a meme team featuring two 'fun' sets: Pain Split Giratina-O and Fire Spin Eternatus. I was trying to figure out a sixth and Bobsican suggested Ditto. I went to go test and in a sample of 20 games I loaded into TR 14 times and of the 6 other games only one was a real team, the rest were typical ladder tomfoolery. I had a seasonal set v Aninjadude the next day and quite liked the team so switched Pain Split Giratina-O for Arceus-Dark since the team was already fine enough v stall and called it there. It won because of a mistake leading to a very easy Ditto reverse sweep. Aninjadude loaded stall G2 and I'm still pissed that I didn't load the original version featuring Pain Split Giratina-O because that would have gone ballistic. I'm not going to mention Pain Split Giratina-O again, but here is a team I've made recently with it (paste). That set is fun for personal / tournament matches, but is too inconsistent into ladder tomfoolery though it is 3HKOed by Tera Steel DIB if Giratina-O is Tera Steel as well.
After that game the team still required some tweaking. It won its debut game off a misplay and matchup rather because it was a fundamentally solid team. The biggest issue the team in that iteration was offensive Dragon-types, namely Eternatus and Palkia-O. This lead to dropping Fire Spin on Eternatus for Fire Blast. Tera Dragon was also swapped for Fairy as Fire Spin is reliant on the damage boost provided by Tera Dragon to function semi consistently as a trapper. I'm happy with the state of the team currently though I'd probably tweak the Eternatus set again by dropping Fire Blast for Recover. The team becomes too weak to Arceus-Fairy if Sludge Bomb is dropped and doesn't have issues with Necrozma-DM. The Etern not having recovery is quite annoying at times and the team as a whole would probably be more consistent as a whole with it. Other changes I'd make would probably be major enough that it would impact the teams identity.
This team was made shortly after the intial Ferrothorn team, but before the final revisions. I really enjoyed the first Ferrothorn team and wanted to explore a different direction. I've been meaning to make a triple Ground team for a while and Ferrothorn 'solves' a lot of the issues I'd ran into when giving a half hearted attempt at building triple Ground previously. It is the only actual 'good' offensive Primal Kyogre check that balance teams can turn to. I'll go into more detail later, but the other options for this role are middling at best and are only considered offensive Primal Kyogre checks because nothing else is. The other main issue that Ferro 'solved' that I previously ran into is Arceus-Ground, mostly due to Taunt and Ice Beam. Having a solid switchin to utility and special Arceus-Ground sets addressed previous issues where the matchup was awkard at best. It is a mon you can afford to be a little weak to, but not one one where you just hope not to load into when running a balance team.
Arceus-Ground is a mon I rarely use myself. This isn't due to any fault with Arceus-Ground. It is a fantastic mon, but the teams I build tend to lean on or require the defensive qualities of Arceus-Dark or Arceus-Fairy which Arceus-Ground cannot adequately replicate. It is a great jack of all trades mon, but oftentimes I need proper checks to things not an adequate one.
Arceus-Ground is a mon I don't use nearly enough and I've been meaning to build a triple ground team for a while so I built a few different versions with different sets and this is my favourite. Though the team was built around Arceus-Ground it is the most expendable member though it is great v HO. It is a pretty simple hazard stack team with Dragon Tail on Primal Groudon over Roar because Gothitelle exists and Zacian-C gets deleted either way. I've switched Dragon Tail for Toxic and switched it back a dozen times. DD is a bit unorthodox here, but I've quite grown to like it. It could certainly be replaced with something else, but it is very nice v HO and a lot of balance builds.
It is also the first time I've used this Yveltal spread which has since become my standard. The slight bulk investment lets it live a ton of hits it shouldn't with the only downside being max speed Lunala. It was just my luck that Squeeby happened to load it twice in the debut. I'll go into a bit more detail about the spread later.
It turns out R8 occasionally finds gold when rambling about the shitmon of the week. Turns out Alo is actually quite good amazing and we should listen to R8 more often. Alo is simultaneously incredibly easy and difficult to build with. Currently I've built a few Alo teams I'm happy with, but there are a lot that have been discarded because I'll finish building a team and realize that the team is far too weak to (insert common balance breaker here).
This team started as an Anti Goth team, hence the name. Other than Ho-Oh every mon is fairly Goth proof. Originally Marshadow had Pursuit and though it was a ton of fun, it ultimately made the team have a lot more trouble with Zygarde than it should. Also shoutout to 09-10a for the Eternatus set. Alo Flip Turn into Eternatus makes an otherwise quite annoying Glimm lead very easy to deal with. Dragon Tail on Primal Groudon is purely for Gothitelle and despite that it has been swapped for Toxic and swapped back a dozen times. The current paste has Dragon Tail on it so I'm leaving it there for now. If Gothitelle didn't exist Roar would be better, but it does so Dragon Tail it is.
Looking at this team after not having used it for 2 weeks I'm not sure why it has worked as well as it seems to. I was going to bring it for the Trios finals v R8 if I didn't build something new.
I was going to lump these two teams together and talk about both at the same time, but there are enough differences in terms of how they play to talk about each individually. In Trios SF Suicune used the original version of this team (paste). He quite liked it, but I felt it was too outdated and he was unlikely to load it into a 6-0 matchup (Band Ray v Mtar stall is lel ). Suicune wanting to use it again in the Finals gave me the motivation to update it. Adem is a good player who has a decent pulse on the meta while also being reasonable experimential. The only fishing both of these teams had was Zygarde's tera which was originally normal, then Dark to account for Basculegion. I've changed it to Water in the paste for people who want to use the team, but are too lazy to read two paragraphs and yell at me later that Dark is a terrible Tera Type for Zygarde.
This is my perferred team of the two. On the surface it swaps Arceus-Dark for Arceus-Fairy and calls it day, but it plays very differently. SD TR Necrozma-DM is something I've wanted to use for a while and was the last change made to the team after I realized it actually fit in pretty well. Thanks to decent paralysis support it isn't reliant on TR, but uses it as a lategame tool if needed v HO. SD also makes the team less reliant on Rayquaza to deal with stall and fat compared to DD. DD can break through Dondozo, but it requires good positioning and some chip so Necrozma-DM doesn't take too much damage before Dondozo is forced to rest. Yes it has CB Rayquaza to blast through stall but all the damage in the world can't change Dragon Ascent having 8 PP.
One last thing is that this is the first time I've used a more offensive Primal Groudon in a serious game. Usually I stick to defensive Overheat, which works well here, but I do like this sort of set on teams that can fit rocks elsewhere and arn't don't rely on Primal Groudon too much defensively. With hindsight I'd probably give Necrozma-DM a bit more speed to outspeed Zygarde as the benefit of that exceeds the low roll for Foul Play to OHKO.
I thought I'd have more to say about this team, but I really don't. It plays more similarly to the original with Life Orb Yveltal being used as a breaker over Rayquaza. Sucker Punch probably fits on Yveltal on this build, but I don't know if Yveltal is the best 6th mon. The squad as a whole feels a bit shaky into HO, but I also havn't really used it since I built it three days ago and how it seems on paper isn't always the same as how it plays in game. It is also just kinda boring relative to V1 though that alone doesn't mean it is better or worse.
Going to get this out of the way now,I would not bring in the future or to mess around with on ladder without some signficant changes. The team was made solely with R8 in mind and consequently the HO matchup was entirely ignored. If I were to mess around with this team on the ladder or bring it v someone else I'd swap one of Rayquaza or Lunala for something else. I don't know what that would be, but it is a bit too weak to HO in its current form. Defensive Primal Groudon also works fine and the main reason I settled on this set was that it could beat Goth without Dragon Tail and it provided a third breaker while still being defensively useful.
I was very nervous going into this game as R8 is both a better, more creative builder and player than I am. I said in my prediction post there isn't much point in overly prepping for R8 because R8 can bring anything. I came up with 20ish ideas for teams. This sounds like a lot more prep than I did in actuality. Most of these teams are skeleton with the team name labelled so I'd remember what the actual idea was, only 3 teams were actually complete and I didn't start to actually build a new team until Thursday.
The sole reason I even thought of such a huge number of teams was Gothitelle. The mon should be banned, but it isn't and likely won't ever be. Furthermore, Eledyr and R8 are both good at using Gothitelle to enable things with a good example being R8's semifinal game. This is the only team I've ever built with a specific person in mind. It definitely is fishing, but not absurdly so. This is very similar to the Specs Lunala team above but I didn't bring that because I didn't trust myself to play well enough to break whatever was needed before some key defensive piece went down in what was likely to be a long game.
Don't be too Gothitelle weak: The starkest example of this is Ho-Oh being Tera Ghost purely for Gothitelle. The other benefits it provides are pretty minimal and almost any other tera would be significantly better. Tera Grass in this matchup would have been amazing, but it just seemed way too damn risky. I can't speak to R8's thought process in building their team, but I figured if I brought Ho-Oh and R8 brought Gothitelle whatever it enabled would probably sweep once Ho-Oh was gone. I thought about creeping Ho-Oh to 218 speed but thought it was a bit excessive and ties into the next thing...
Bring very strong breakers, but be very mindful of offensive Eternatus in the builder. While I had zero idea about what R8 would bring specifically I would have been very surprised if it was anything other than a bulkier balance build. I've been building a lot of fatter balance builds recently and offensive Eternatus is amazing on them and what I expected R8 to bring. Early on I thought Band Rayquaza would be great, but I soon became very worried about relying on a breaker that would always have issues with Eternatus so decided on Specs Lunala instead. Rayquaza obviously made it onto the final squad, but it was initially CM Origin Pulse Ice Beam Rest modest Primal Kyogre. I ultimately scrapped that for Ray as I figured it would wind up being too exploitable by offensive Eternatus / Primal Groudon / Alo. This obviously ended up being a moot point since Dragon Tail Eternatus was brought.
Ignore HO. This isn't something I do with most teams but since this team was solely for R8 I felt fine with this gamble. The same applied to Zacian-C though the team isn't absurdly weak to it. I wouldn't ignore HO to the degree I did next time around but I basically felt if R8 wants to bring HO or TB Ground Zacian-C ggs and well played.
I built this team on Friday morning and figured I should probably do some testing on ladder. Made it 3 games in where I faced 2 terapagos teams and Ursaluna-BM TR. I realized it was a waste of time and had other stuff to do and at this point I may as well trust the team.
Metagame Trends
I'd like to talk a bit about each playstyle before touching on a few mons that have gotten significantly better or worse since the Xerneas ban. The playstyles are not listed by viability, just from most offensive to most defensive.
Hyper offense (A-/A): When Xerneas was banned I thought HO in general would get a bit worse and I doubt I was the only one. Xerneas wasn't only found on HO, but it is the playstyle it was strongest on. As a whole I don't think HO is signficantly worse if worse at all than during the Xerneas metagame. Other playstyles are better, but HO isn't worse or even close to bad. HO is more honest. As a balance player the HO matchup felt dictated more in the builder than by actual in game play. The 6th mon far too often would dictate the result of the game and that was very unhealthy. Checking the staples of Xerneas, Zacian-Crowned, Ultra Necrozma, ect were doable, but often that 6th mon would super easily clean up and there wasn't much one could do.
Today HO is generally honest, well Basculegion isn't, but otherwise I really like the place HO has in the metagame. HO teams arn't handed free wins and skillful play is heavily reward. Though I don't enjoy using HO myself, it is the teamstyle that allows for the most skill expression in game, and at times in the builder. Psyspam is also a recent development that though overrated, is good and merits mentioning. It is good, but it should not have have had nearly the usage it did in seasonals and trios. Just because I think it is overrated does not mean I think it is a passing fad. I'm sure there is a lot of development that will happen on that front in the coming months.
As a slight tangent, Kyurem-Black is very underrated on HO. HO players, all those mons that annoy the ever living fuck out of you? They either all lose to Kyurem-Black or are forced to tera and now lose to something else you're already running. It is also decent into stall and fat. It should be used more often.
Bulky offense (A-/A): It doesn't take much familiarity with the tier to predict BO would be better in a Xerneas free metagame. During the Xerneas era BO was in a wierd spot where it simultaneously lacked the longevity to handle many balance teams while also being too frail against HO. That definitely isn't the case anymore and BO is more consistent, and more importantly, able to play the game on its own terms more often than not. Giratina-O is excellent, but there is also more room to run alternate hazard removal such as Yveltal and offensive Ho-Oh.
BO feels relatively underexplored currently and I'm looking forward to see where it goes. Xerneas leaving gives a lot more breathing room in the builder to use mons that are less consistent on a game to game basis while having a higher ceiling such as CM refresh Arceus formes. These sort of mons felt near impossible to run outside of balance previously because of how tenuous the HO matchup was to begin with. Adem seems to have taken a liking to BO teams recently, but I'm hoping others do as well as there is a hell of a lot left to be discovered.
Balance (A/A-): The rating is to show that I find balance teams to be a bit better than HO/BO teams, but not by much. I'm still a balance player for sure, but I've been taking a page out of R8's book and been building a lot of fatter stuff recently. I'm nowhere near as creative as R8 is in the builder, but they often have a lot of great ideas and are great to discuss ideas with, thank you for taking the time to do so. Balances with a more offensive lean are a safer option compared to HO/BO where there the skill expression is tilted towards the building process. I'm sure in the near future I'll shift back to building more offensive balances and I'd like to build more with the CM mono Judgement sets that Adem is a big fan of. The Xerneas ban has left a lot of room for more experimential stuff to be slotted into balance rather than having to be built around.
Fat Balance (A): This is the first time I've talked about the styles and have talked about fat balances because I want to rather than feeling obligated to because I've mentioned every style. Though my fat balances are neither as interesting nor unorthodox as R8's I've really enjoyed building them recently. It is the first time since I started playing NDUbers that fatter balances are the best style. Whether that is Alo, Ferro, or just random crap they're all quite fun to build and fundamentally solid. They just need some sort of fast offensive mon, Eternatus generally tends to be the best in my experience, but Marshadow is very good as well. Shoutout to Tera Dark SpD Arceus Fairy. It has been holding half my teams together since the Xerneas ban.
Stall (B-): Stall hasn't really changed at all. Stall on the ladder and stall in a tournament are two entirely different things. On the ladder stall has a very easy time farming bad teams and people who can't be bothered to play it so stall seems a lot better than it actually is. It also benefits from a lot of people not knowing how to play v stall as well who needlessly let their wincons get toxic'd or chipped too much.
In tournaments it is not much more than a matchup fish. If you're building a good team you need some way to break defensive backbones and often times that is going to provide the means to break stall. If it doesn't it probably only takes some minor tweaks to be able to do so. Stall matches up into some HO teams but really poorly into everything else. Our breakers are generally strong enough to deal with stall teams. The thing I dislike the most about stall is its ability to overcome matchups through bad play. Most teams can, but there is only so much outplaying out can do as a stall player w/ our SF game in Trios being a pretty good example.
789 Chalice Load
Timid 32 HP / 8 Def / 240 Spa / 8 SpD 220 Spe is my current gold standard spread on LO YV. The only real downside is being outsped by Lunala, which of course Squeeby happened to bring twice the first time I loaded this in seasonals ... I don't have an issue with Timid as I've always viewed Knock Off as a utility move v fat and stall so the minor power drop is fine and have not found a calc where the 12 SpA EVs matter so far. In return you get a LO Yveltal that lives a lot of shit it shouldn't. It survives defensive Primal Groudon Overheat after one round of LO chip. It survives uninvested Arceus-Fairy Judgement after one round of LO chip and beats Bold sets if they switch in on Oblivion Wing which shouldn't be possible. It survives CB Ray Dragon Ascent. It survives defensive Primal Kyogre Ice Beam after Stealth Rock and one round of LO chip. It also always wins the mirror It also survives +1 Zacian-C Wild Charge which is quite nice for Tera Flying variants which I'm liking more and more. It is true that Tera Dark is a nuclear breaker, but LO Yveltal is already a nuclear breaker without tera and Tera Flying makes those Oblivion Wings really pack a punch while keeping Yveltal healthier. I also learned while writing this that this spread also survives Choice Specs Lunala Moonblast, just another reason why it is great.
I'm sure there is some calc I'm forgetting but LO Yveltal is a god at the moment. LO Yveltal is currently the most consistent and scariest breaker we have. If you're not running HO it probably threatens a minimum of three mons on your team. The only good switchin is Timid SpD Arceus-Fairy and that is just one set. Though a step down, defensive and scarf sets are both excellent. When people talk about how amazing Eternatus that is how I currently view Yveltal. Almost every non-stall team can fit some Yveltal set if they want and it will be consistent. Yveltal is a pretty easy S rank to me and arguably better than Eternatus due to how consistent LO is against every playstyle. A lot of the Arceus I run these days are 96+ speed solely for Yveltal. Whenever I've run Arceus-Fairy this has been my standard, but more often Arceus-Ground and Arceus-Water on my teams hit this benchmark as well.
It is the destroyer of balance and a lot of teams in seasonals/trios, including my own, just get absolutely smoked by offensive Primal Kyogre. It has some issues v HO, but those can be addressed in the builder and it is well worth supporting. I have not built it yet, but Alo+ Primal Kyogre seems like it would be a lot of fun with something like Marshadow for HO. Defensive sets are still amazing, but if you are building a balance w/o Ferrothorn you likely do not have a solid offensive Primal Kyogre check.
The metagame seems to be simultaneously trending towards both HO and fatter balance, both playstyles that Marshadow matches up very well into. Some people claim that CB Marshadow is great into stall, but I've never been able to make that work. Marshadow is better atm than its been in a long time. CB A+ / BU LO A- / AOA B-. AoA only works because Marshadow itself is good imo and combines the worst parts of both CB and BU LO.
Yveltal plays a huge role in why I'm so high on Arceus-Fairy at the moment. Having an actual defensive switchin to that beast is such a relief in the teambuilder. Normally I go with 248 HP / 164 SpD / 96+ Spe with some utility spread. It is still the only Arceus form I like rocks on. If / when I join another tournament maybe I'll give CM + Gothitelle a go because it feels like it would either be inconsistent or way more effort than it is worth without Gothitelle support and Arceus-Dark as a better standalone wincon. Lately I've been using defensive Primal Ground + Ho-Oh + Tera Water Zygarde + Tera Dark Arceus-Fairy as a core and it really feels like you can plug that + almost any two offensive mons and it will probably work. Tera Dark Arceus-Fairy covers pretty much everything you'd use Arceus-Dark for except SD Primal Groudon which Zygarde handles. I nommed it for A[1] but the bottom of A+ seems alright as well.
No one should be surprised that Giratina-O is better post Xerneas. Special and Defogless sets are better than ever, but physical sets are just kinda ass. It seems nice on paper, but then you look at the metagame and you have a strongish (that is being kind) that kinda loses to everything while being forced into Toxic. Toxic isn't had but when you're forced into it because you lose to mons that you should be beating such as Primal Groudon and Zygarde it becomes an issue.
Lunala, at least Specs sets, have only gotten better since the Xerneas ban. Yes, Yveltal and Marshadow have generally improved as well, but that doesn't really hinder Lunala at all. Neither really want to switch in and Lunala's weakness to them is so severe that sturdy answers, usually Arceus-Fairy and Zygarde, were already required. Normally I'd say requiring two mons for support should heavily count against a mon, but these are mons that would probably be considered anyways and heavily appreciate Lunala's ability to threaten every Eternatus set.
Specs doesn't really have safe switchins and doesn't tend to rely on Shadow Shield in the games where you need it wallbreak since it outspeed most of the defensive mons it preys on. This is starkly on display in my Trios Finals game v R8 where even though Arceus-Ground should have switched out, a speed boosting nature would enable it scout which move Lunala locks into and switch to the appropriate teammate. Even if Yveltal or Arceus-Dark switch in Moongeist Beam is doing enough damage that Recover turns can be exploited or it can just Tera Ghost since it doesn't need a huge amount of chip to 2HKO. Hell you can just Tera Ghost and these 'resists' are forced to recover if they want to switch in again and Lunala now survives Foul Play after Stealth Rock.
The biggest thing impacting Lunala moving forward is the degree to which Arceus formes decide to run 96+ Speed. This also impacts Rayquaza, and to a lesser extent, LO Yveltal. This leaves Eternatus, which isn't eager to switch in, as the only defensive mon which outruns Lunala. If more utility Arceus formes shift towards + speed, which wouldn't shock me, Lunala is going to have a bit of a tougher time. Lunala itself isn't really going to be worth making that change for, but LO Yveltal is a lot of the time and Lunala would be a casualty of that.
I thought about nominating this to B+ on the VR post, but decided against it. Ferrothorn itself and bulkier spikestacks are quite good at the moment, but I'm not sure if Ferrothorn itself is splashable enough. The tranqulity that comes with not having to worry about Primal Kyogre is certainly something I could get used to. Defensive Primal Kyogre generally isn't too terrible for balance teams to deal with but offensive sets are a terror. Primal Groudon is only a good check when your opponent greeds and doesn't click Ice Beam. The issue is that Primal Groudon is still better than almost anything else. Ferrothorn doesn't love taking 150 BP Water Spout, but it does take it well enough to function decently well after. Power whip does enough damage to force Primal Kyogre to respect it and makes staying in an actual risk while also covering Alomomola and Arceus Ground/Water.
The question is the last moveslot. Pre Xerneas ban I was an advocate for Protect, but currently Knock is better. It draws in Ho-Oh like a moth to a flame and lacks the issues with passivity that Protect brings and annoying Zygarde and fat balance / stall. I've also been enjoying Tera Grass a fair bit for the Ground resist and enabling Ferro to annoy Zygarde significantly more than it already does. It rarely teras anyways so the specificity is not the end of the world.
Honourable Mentions: Alomomola, Palkia-O, Ditto, Deoxys-A, Gothitelle, Necrozma-DM, Landorus-T, Chien Pao, Baculegion (it pains me to write this)
Caught Slipping
The title seems a bit harsh as Arceus-Ground hasn't had a big tumble, it is just slightly worse. Arceus-Ground is a mon I view as a jack of all trades master of none. There is usually some set that fits whatever team I'm building, but far more often than not some other Arceus forme is a better fit. If I want a defensive lean from my Arceus forme, Fairy and Dark tend to provide better support to whatever mon I'm building around. This applies to CM sets as well. I do quite like physical sets and those slot in very well as an offensive presence that still provide a decent amount of defensive utility.
Arceus-Ground is a pokemon that I've always somewhat struggled to evaluate because it just doesn't tend to fit in particularly well with the teams I build, my teambuilding style, nor my playing style. Usually I need something more specific than what Arceus-Ground able to offer and have to build around it to a degree that I shouldn't as it often exacerbates existing issues that many of my teams struggle with rather than help. Everyone is trapped by their own perspective to some degree and I am certain that applies to me with Arceus-Ground.
Even when I see how other people build and play with it, Arceus-Ground doesn't have the presence of the #4 mon in the meta. Playing against it has also felt easier than at any point in a long time even when not using Ferrothorn. I don't know what I'm missing or not picking up about this mon, but it has to be something.
I oscillate between feeling that Zacian-C hasn't been that negatively impacted by Xerneas' departure and that it is significantly worse, currently I am heavily leaning towards the latter. Zacian-C is still unquestionably one of the best mons in the metagame, but it is so much easier to handle defensively. During the Xerneas meta these two worked in tandem to easily overwhelm their shared checks and enable the other.
Zacian-C is still an enormous hindrance to more offensive teams, but it is significantly less threatening to bulkier teams. The defensive cores of these teams now have enough breathing room as they arn't always forced to decide between checking Zacian-C and actually performing their intended roles. Ho-Oh can somewhat reasonably Defog on a regular basis v HO because it doesn't have to perserve HP to deal with both Xerneas and Zacian-C. Giratina-O and Yveltal are now fairly splashable hazard removal because they are not as frequently forced to tera to remove them and so on.
Zacian-C finds less safe entry points these days to either wallbreak or sweep. It can and will still easily do, but it actually has to work to do so more often than ever. It is still a scary mon, but it is more reasonable to check than it used to be. I like its current place in the meta, but will probably never like Tera Electric. Kyurem-Black exists.
Arceus-Dark is still a fantastic mon, but it has consistency issues that have lead to me perfering other Arceus formes more often than not and a lot of this stems from the ubiquity of LO Yveltal. During the Xerneas meta I had a preference for Wisp over Toxic. Toxic is more consistent on a game to game basis, but Wisp is a lot better into the HO teams that Arceus-Dark was on the team to help with. This is a much larger issue in the current day as Arceus-Dark is a Dark-Resist that loses to LO Yveltal without Toxic, but is much worse into HO without Wisp. Even with Toxic, Arceus-Dark has additional issues. Bold Arceus-Dark is forced to attempt to Toxic Yveltal on the switch and is liable to be kept low throughout the match which makes it easier for mons such as Ultra Necrozma to find a way to break through eventually. Timid solves the Yveltal issue, but Arceus-Dark becomes a signifcantly less sturdy check to SD Primal Groudon, one of the few reasons I'd use it over Tera Dark Arceus Fairy. R8 said that dual status was decent, but I've never used it myself and am a little skeptical since without Taunt Arceus-Dark has no means of maintaining progress against fatter balance and stall teams nor a way to keep itself free of status outside of tera.
I do quite like the mono Judgement sets that Adem has been hyping up. I'm yet to use them, but Arceus-Dark is the most appealing Arceus Forme for this set due to the lack of support required compared to Water or Fairy. Pair it with Zygarde for the SD Primal Groudon that it doesn't check very well anymore and it can go to town. Arceus-Dark is still a great Pokemon, but it has shifted from a slap this on a team mon to something that requires a bit more attention in the builder to cover its flaws.
I nommed this to drop to B+/B in my VR post and the more I think about it, even this feels rather high. In a vacuum MMY is a great mon, but outside of that whenever I try and build with it I'm always left wondering why I'm having to spend so much effort to enable MMY to do its thing relative to other breakers. It suffers from the attention Ultra Necrozma demands in the teambuilder as all the hard checks / counters for Ultra Necrozma work for MMY. It also suffers from Xerneas' departure as this has lead to a less centralized metagame which only exacerbates MMY's 4MSS.
For whatever reason Game Freak decided that MMY would be too powerful without a Defence reduction which really screws it over. To compensate we pour a fair amount of EVs to live LO Shadow Sneak after megaing, but still die to CB or if it takes any hazard damage which a breaker inevitably will. It is still frail as shit physically with this investment and makes deciding to mega evolve can be really awkard since it can generally at least take a hit in base forme. Priority is an issue regardless and you'd think Psyspam would solve that, but it requires webs since Zacian-C outspeeds and OHKOes it anyways. So you have this playstyle that is seemingly perfect for MMY, but even then Basculegion is a better abuser. There is also the issue of 4MSS where Mewtwo has pretty gaping holes regardless of whatever coverage it choses. It also has issues with stall as its best set requires hitting multiple Focus Blasts to make progress.
I've spilt a lot of ink shitting on this mon, but it isn't all bad. Outspeeding Eternatus is valuable, it is powerful enough, and though it has its issues, these are not going to present in every game. Yveltal + Arceus-Dark isn't common at all, Sucker Punch isn't guaranteed to be on LO Yveltal, Marshadow is common, but not absurdly so. The issues MMY has are all individually solvable, but as stated earlier, it begs the question: why bother? MMY is considered a top tier mon (A-) and these sorts of mons either have ways around their counterplay or are strong enough that some dedicated support is worthwhile.
For comparisons sake, Specs Lunala requires the same support, but is significantly more consistent. It doesn't require accounting for the coverage gaps because nothing enjoys switching into it in the first place. It also doesn't have the issue of worrying about LO Yveltal Sucker Punch because it either dies to Moonblast switching in or Lunala is switching out which MMY has to scout anyways. I'll give building MMY yet another go in the near future, but it is just a shame that the metagame is so hostile that it handicaps what is a good mon.
Dishonourable Mentions: Ultra Necrozma, Mega Salamence, Deoxys-S, Magearna, Arceus-Ghost
Thanks for the post bumboclatt! Insightful as always! I also am going to do a team dump here for conversation sake, although I’m bad at this game and am terribly unoriginal, so I didn’t put too much thought into these teams. All three teams I brought into the tournament I had already previously made and used a good deal on ladder to success.
Round 1: Cherif18
I didn’t know anything about the user I was facing, so I brought the team I use the most on ladder and am the most comfortable with and owe any ladder success to, a.k.a, Weather Crashing Bird Core. https://pokepast.es/9da584a243fe2aaf
The team I brought was a slightly worse version of the team I currently use and present with max Defensive Yveltal with Rocky Helmet, although I still believe Rocky Helmet is a decent item on Yveltal, allowing it to grab KOs against Zacian-C and Arceus it would miss out on.
The team is pretty well balanced, although Tera is essential to keep it from collapsing to Primal Kyogre and Trick Room. All attack Primal Groudon is a neat option that allows it to cover a large majority of the Metagame, meaning it’s hard to force out unless you have something such as Primal Kyogre. Tera Steel is honestly such a great catch-all Tera for Yveltal, from Trick Room to Arceus-Fairy to being the team’s Toxic switch-in. I would run Poison but I have too much Melmetal and Caly-I trama. Tera Grass Ho-Oh is the check for Primal Kyogre. M-Salamence checks Primal Groudon and has Facade for more anti-Toxic tech.
In the end the opponent brought a meme team so none of it really mattered anyway.
Quarterfinals: Miyoko
Also had no idea who my opponent was this round. I didn’t think bringing the same team would be smart here. So I brought an old HO team of mine and it worked well, although the team is pretty unrefined.
A pretty simple Sticky Web HO. Not much to say. Shuckle puts Webs and Eternatus uses them well. Deoxys-A was in cause it’s an amazing breaker and I’m terrified of stall-fishes. Swords Dance Primal Groudon with coverage over Rock Polish since I had Webs. Arceus-Fairy is anti-Yveltal and stall with Tera Poison. Ultra Necrozma is a HO staple.
I won the suicide lead game, so the rest of the game fell in place, as Sticky Web crippled most of Miyoko’s team and stopped Zacian-C from being threatening. Yveltal had an Arceus-Fairy in the back that I preserved after Zacian-C switched in.
Semifinals: Adem
This time I finally had an idea what I might be facing. I don’t know why but I had a sneaky suspicion Adem might bring Psychic Terrain, so I loaded the possible worst matchup for that playstyle, Trick Room (looking back at it why did I even have that suspicion? Adem brought bulky balance teams the other two games)
Calyrex-Ice is pretty standard. Honestly, I prefer Hatterene as a mid-game Trick Room setter since Misty Explosion is such a useful anti-snowball tool, allowing you to eliminate anything that might me snowballing you. And also, since Hatterene is so good, why can’t Hattrem do the same thing and be the lead instead? Melmetal is also pretty standard. Primal Kyogre helps beat any Tera Water Zygarde and Dondozo that Trick Room may have trouble with. Also would love to see exploration with Goth on Trick Room to remove those bulky Water Mons. The Arceus set looks really weird. I was trying to make it a sort of hybrid of an Extreme Killer set and a Trick Room setter so that I could use it to sweep any frail HO teams.
The game itself was already a bit loaded in my favor and hax sealed it, from the Water Sprout crit to the Stone Edge damage roll. I do love how mid-game Trick Room Hatterene did extremely well though on the Dynamax Cannon read, setting up Trick Room and eliminating the Eternatus threat with Misty Explosion.
(Lebernatus Horse)
(Specs Lunala Balance)
(Knock Ferro Dragon Fang Eternatus Hstack)
(DD Ground Dtail Hstack)
(Updated ZNDM BO V1)
789 Chalice Load
Timid 32 HP / 8 Def / 240 Spa / 8 SpD 220 Spe is my current gold standard spread on LO YV. The only real downside is being outsped by Lunala, which of course Squeeby happened to bring twice the first time I loaded this in seasonals
... I don't have an issue with Timid as I've always viewed Knock Off as a utility move v fat and stall so the minor power drop is fine and have not found a calc where the 12 SpA EVs matter so far. In return you get a LO Yveltal that lives a lot of shit it shouldn't. It survives defensive Primal Groudon Overheat after one round of LO chip. It survives uninvested Arceus-Fairy Judgement after one round of LO chip and beats Bold sets if they switch in on Oblivion Wing which shouldn't be possible. It survives CB Ray Dragon Ascent. It survives defensive Primal Kyogre Ice Beam after Stealth Rock and one round of LO chip. It also always wins the mirror It also survives +1 Zacian-C Wild Charge which is quite nice for Tera Flying variants which I'm liking more and more. It is true that Tera Dark is a nuclear breaker, but LO Yveltal is already a nuclear breaker without tera and Tera Flying makes those Oblivion Wings really pack a punch while keeping Yveltal healthier. I also learned while writing this that this spread also survives Choice Specs Lunala Moonblast, just another reason why it is great.
It is the destroyer of balance and a lot of teams in seasonals/trios, including my own, just get absolutely smoked by offensive Primal Kyogre. It has some issues v HO, but those can be addressed in the builder and it is well worth supporting. I have not built it yet, but Alo+ Primal Kyogre seems like it would be a lot of fun with something like Marshadow for HO. Defensive sets are still amazing, but if you are building a balance w/o Ferrothorn you likely do not have a solid offensive Primal Kyogre check.
The metagame seems to be simultaneously trending towards both HO and fatter balance, both playstyles that Marshadow matches up very well into. Some people claim that CB Marshadow is great into stall, but I've never been able to make that work. Marshadow is better atm than its been in a long time. CB A+ / BU LO A- / AOA B-. AoA only works because Marshadow itself is good imo and combines the worst parts of both CB and BU LO.
Yveltal plays a huge role in why I'm so high on Arceus-Fairy at the moment. Having an actual defensive switchin to that beast is such a relief in the teambuilder. Normally I go with 248 HP / 164 SpD / 96+ Spe with some utility spread. It is still the only Arceus form I like rocks on. If / when I join another tournament maybe I'll give CM + Gothitelle a go because it feels like it would either be inconsistent or way more effort than it is worth without Gothitelle support and Arceus-Dark as a better standalone wincon. Lately I've been using defensive Primal Ground + Ho-Oh + Tera Water Zygarde + Tera Dark Arceus-Fairy as a core and it really feels like you can plug that + almost any two offensive mons and it will probably work. Tera Dark Arceus-Fairy covers pretty much everything you'd use Arceus-Dark for except SD Primal Groudon which Zygarde handles. I nommed it for A[1] but the bottom of A+ seems alright as well.
No one should be surprised that Giratina-O is better post Xerneas. Special and Defogless sets are better than ever, but physical sets are just kinda ass. It seems nice on paper, but then you look at the metagame and you have a strongish (that is being kind) that kinda loses to everything while being forced into Toxic. Toxic isn't had but when you're forced into it because you lose to mons that you should be beating such as Primal Groudon and Zygarde it becomes an issue.
Lunala, at least Specs sets, have only gotten better since the Xerneas ban. Yes, Yveltal and Marshadow have generally improved as well, but that doesn't really hinder Lunala at all. Neither really want to switch in and Lunala's weakness to them is so severe that sturdy answers, usually Arceus-Fairy and Zygarde, were already required. Normally I'd say requiring two mons for support should heavily count against a mon, but these are mons that would probably be considered anyways and heavily appreciate Lunala's ability to threaten every Eternatus set.
I thought about nominating this to B+ on the VR post, but decided against it. Ferrothorn itself and bulkier spikestacks are quite good at the moment, but I'm not sure if Ferrothorn itself is splashable enough. The tranqulity that comes with not having to worry about Primal Kyogre is certainly something I could get used to. Defensive Primal Kyogre generally isn't too terrible for balance teams to deal with but offensive sets are a terror. Primal Groudon is only a good check when your opponent greeds and doesn't click Ice Beam. The issue is that Primal Groudon is still better than almost anything else. Ferrothorn doesn't love taking 150 BP Water Spout, but it does take it well enough to function decently well after. Power whip does enough damage to force Primal Kyogre to respect it and makes staying in an actual risk while also covering Alomomola and Arceus Ground/Water.
Caught Slipping
The title seems a bit harsh as Arceus-Ground hasn't had a big tumble, it is just slightly worse. Arceus-Ground is a mon I view as a jack of all trades master of none. There is usually some set that fits whatever team I'm building, but far more often than not some other Arceus forme is a better fit. If I want a defensive lean from my Arceus forme, Fairy and Dark tend to provide better support to whatever mon I'm building around. This applies to CM sets as well. I do quite like physical sets and those slot in very well as an offensive presence that still provide a decent amount of defensive utility.
I oscillate between feeling that Zacian-C hasn't been that negatively impacted by Xerneas' departure and that it is significantly worse, currently I am heavily leaning towards the latter. Zacian-C is still unquestionably one of the best mons in the metagame, but it is so much easier to handle defensively. During the Xerneas meta these two worked in tandem to easily overwhelm their shared checks and enable the other.
Arceus-Dark is still a fantastic mon, but it has consistency issues that have lead to me perfering other Arceus formes more often than not and a lot of this stems from the ubiquity of LO Yveltal. During the Xerneas meta I had a preference for Wisp over Toxic. Toxic is more consistent on a game to game basis, but Wisp is a lot better into the HO teams that Arceus-Dark was on the team to help with. This is a much larger issue in the current day as Arceus-Dark is a Dark-Resist that loses to LO Yveltal without Toxic, but is much worse into HO without Wisp. Even with Toxic, Arceus-Dark has additional issues. Bold Arceus-Dark is forced to attempt to Toxic Yveltal on the switch and is liable to be kept low throughout the match which makes it easier for mons such as Ultra Necrozma to find a way to break through eventually. Timid solves the Yveltal issue, but Arceus-Dark becomes a signifcantly less sturdy check to SD Primal Groudon, one of the few reasons I'd use it over Tera Dark Arceus Fairy. R8 said that dual status was decent, but I've never used it myself and am a little skeptical since without Taunt Arceus-Dark has no means of maintaining progress against fatter balance and stall teams nor a way to keep itself free of status outside of tera.
I nommed this to drop to B+/B in my VR post and the more I think about it, even this feels rather high. In a vacuum MMY is a great mon, but outside of that whenever I try and build with it I'm always left wondering why I'm having to spend so much effort to enable MMY to do its thing relative to other breakers. It suffers from the attention Ultra Necrozma demands in the teambuilder as all the hard checks / counters for Ultra Necrozma work for MMY. It also suffers from Xerneas' departure as this has lead to a less centralized metagame which only exacerbates MMY's 4MSS.
