okay right off the bat ima say that reflect should not be considered highly offensive in stalliness - not on its own (so if the metric was referring specifically to both screens at the same time, disregard me). light screen imo is more so than reflect.
also, i think you wrote originally that reflect and light screen would be adding. i thought this would indicate more stalliness? typo?
Yep. Typos."The moves Reflect and Dual Screen add 1 to the metric. Screens are rarely seen in stall and are immensely important for hyper offense. "
Do you mean subtract? Also Dual Screen is not a move lol. I'd say they should probably not affect the score though. They are sometimes used defensively, albeit not together. If you want anything to subtract I'd say Light Clay.
Lol, yes. Another typo.There are a couple of errors in there such as the brackets in innocent criminal's formula (shouldn't be there, I assume).
IIRC no one is forced to use Anger Point, but I concede the point. I'll be editing that ASAP.I think you need to consider which abilities are actually useful when you decide whether they should add offensiveness or defensiveness. Abilties that are not very useful, such as Anger Point, Blaze, Torrent, Overgrow, Sniper, and Battle Armor are usually chosen out of necessity rather than in an effort to make a pokemon more offensive. They should make less or no difference to the score.
PS logs record the actual movesets of each pokemon, so I'll be using the moveset used by that Pokemon in the battle.To clarify, will you be taking the Pokemon's most used sets, or all of them, in your metric?
As I say at the end of the post, by doing the averaging the way that I do, I ensure that an outlier doesn't dominate the team's score (Blissey on an otherwise offensive team was by best example). The problem with distinguishing between Band/Specs and Scarf is that, quite often than not, the sets play roughly the same way. Anyway, I knew that decision would be controversial. I'll be interested to hear what other people say.Generally I like how the movesets factor in, although I would say that Choice Scarf should be subtract less than Band or Specs. This is because, although it is still an offensive item, it's is actually usable on stall teams for the purpose of revenge killing threats that can't be handled defensively, and a win condition. You will almost certainly never see a Pokemon with Huge/Pure Power, a Life Orb, Specs/Band, or a set up move on a team, and still be able to call it stall. You may, however, see a Scarfed Pokemon and be able to call the team stall, or at least semi-stall. For that reason I think it should subtract less, perhaps 0.25.
Nothing so far. Why? What did you have in mind?I may have missed it, but what do Counter and Mirror Coat do in the formula?
If this is implemented, it should be implemented for Sap Sipper, Lightningrod, Storm Drain, Water/Volt Absorb, etc.Reading through the list of modifiers, something that stood out to me was Flash Fire subtracting half a point. While Flash Fire does increase the power of Fire moves, it also gives pokemon blessed with it a useful immunity. While some pokemon such as Houndoom and Arcanine appreciate its power boost, others care more about the ability to absorb Fire-type moves. Imagine a SpD Heatran without Flash Fire; all of a sudden, it doesn't make a very good Sun/Volcarona counter. Basically, the ability is equally offensive and defensive I don't think FF should have a modifier at all.
hmm. we all know that specs/band are generally distinguished by making a mon extremely difficult to switch into by virtue of sheer power, but only rarely execute sweeps (eg scizor's bullet punch or other banded priority. only a few mons can do this well). scarf on the other hand is used for revenging, and for late-game cleanup. yes this is a generalization but it's a pretty accurate one, i'd say. i think many types of teams can benefit from the latter, but only offensive teams will benefit from the former, which is why i would argue that scarf be given an offensive lean, but less so than the other two choice items.The problem with distinguishing between Band/Specs and Scarf is that, quite often than not, the sets play roughly the same way. Anyway, I knew that decision would be controversial. I'll be interested to hear what other people say.
They're all neutral.What about Weather inducing abilities? Are they all neutral or do they have different ranks (sun at -0.5, sand at +0.5)?
The difference between Sap Sipper, Flash Fire, and Storm Drain (And I forgot Lightningrod, so that too) is that those either raise the power of a move type or raise stats. Other immunity abilities don't.If this is implemented, it should be implemented for Sap Sipper, Lightningrod, Storm Drain, Water/Volt Absorb, etc.
Also, Rattled should be added to the list of offensive abilities.
Yeah, I'm gonna remove Flash Fire. Probably Flame Body, too, if I'm not doing anything with Static or Effect Spore.The difference between Sap Sipper, Flash Fire, and Storm Drain (And I forgot Lightningrod, so that too) is that those either raise the power of a move type or raise stats. Other immunity abilities don't.
I'm DYING TO KNOW!!! Ok not really, but I am interested in the second question's answer especially.Well actually... idk. Dumb question there, sorry.
How are accuracy-boosting moves represented?(I assume -1 like the other offensive moves) What about defensive boosts(Cosmic Power)?
Coil,lolon their own i think acc boosts are meaningless but hone claws should behave like all the other attack boosting moves and it's like the only +acc booster that matters
as for defense boosters that's obviously a +1 on most mons (eg cosmic power sigilyph) but one must beware of baton pass, in which it's not really being used the same way. i wouldn't call baton pass a stall team but you're probably gonna find some amnesia/acid armor/iron defense in there. and as for mixed boosts like cm and bulk up, i'm leaning towards offensive, but not as much so as other boosting moves so tough to say
I find this part to be confusing. Does it check for abiltites like Snow Cloak and Poison Heal then determine the score for the Sub?Substitute subtracts 0.5 from the metric. Substitute is mostly used to allow its user to set up for a sweep, and the 25% health cost means that it doesn’t really work great with stall (which relies on a lot of switching anyways). There are Prankster-Sub-Recover strategies, but in that case, the net effect is in favor of stall (+0.5).
this is interesting, making a distinction between an individual mon's score and the score of the team as a whole. let's suppose the stalliness metric is used to gather stats about individual mons in addition to a whole team (if this metric is only used to measure entire teams then there's no point to the distinction between an individual mon and its team). then what do we think a dual screen user should look like? do we call it an offensive mon because it really only fits on an offensive team? or is it a defensive mon because ultimately screens are defensive moves, even if they're being used on an offensive team?I'm also a bit on-the-fence about Light Clay; though they might be part of offensive teams, the user of Dual Screens is rarely offensive. (only exceptions are: Latias, Azelf) In that situation, it really depends on whether you're rating each pokemon as itself, or doing something like averaging each team's score.
I'm DYING TO KNOW!!! Ok not really, but I am interested in the second question's answer especially.
on their own i think acc boosts are meaningless but hone claws should behave like all the other attack boosting moves and it's like the only +acc booster that matters (EDIT: lol coil. would have remembered it if not for its crappy ass distribution >_>)
as for defense boosters that's obviously a +1 on most mons (eg cosmic power sigilyph) but one must beware of baton pass, in which it's not really being used the same way. i wouldn't call baton pass a stall team but you're probably gonna find some amnesia/acid armor/iron defense in there. and as for mixed boosts like cm and bulk up, i'm leaning towards offensive, but not as much so as other boosting moves so tough to say
Moves that boost accuracy alone are neutral. Moves that boost defenses alone are neutral (they *don't* actually help stall, because Stall usually involves a lot of switching)Coil,lol
I've got to agree with you about everything else, though.
The idea is that 25% HP loss from sub is too big a price to pay for it to really be +stall. On the other hand, sub is often important for setting up. And note that sub-stall strategies almost always make use of a recovery move, in which case the net effect will be +0.5I find this part to be confusing. Does it check for abiltites like Snow Cloak and Poison Heal then determine the score for the Sub?
Edit: Do you think the move Trick is a good candidate to subtract seeing how it is used to shut down walls and stuff like that. Also how about Psycho shift?
Yeah, Trick probably deserves -0.5 and Psycho Shift a +0.5. I don't want to assign scores for Flame / Toxic Orb since they can presumably be used for both stall and offense, depending on the ability (and I don't want to get into ability interactions)Since Trick is most commonly utilized with Choice items, I'd imagine that they'd have the same rating.
Baton Pass itself doesn't get a mod. Any mods come from the setup moves.I think Baton Pass should be mentioned, preferrably subtracting 1. Stall/Defense rarely uses Baton Pass, in fact I don't recall ever battling even a semi stall team with Baton Pass. It is definitely a offensive only strategy. The reason why I think it should subtract one whole point is because it's extreme, pure offense. There's really no Stall to it.
This is based in math: halving your opponent's attack means you can survive twice as many hits.This is just my opinion, but I think WiloWisp should only add 0.5. Plenty of offensive teams use WiloWisp- as a way to cripple the opponent so they have an easier time boosting, or just statusing the opponent so they're easier to break through.
This is an interesting idea, and I may consider it. For now, though, I'm saying that a Dual Screener is inherently offensive, in-and-of-itself.this is interesting, making a distinction between an individual mon's score and the score of the team as a whole. let's suppose the stalliness metric is used to gather stats about individual mons in addition to a whole team (if this metric is only used to measure entire teams then there's no point to the distinction between an individual mon and its team). then what do we think a dual screen user should look like? do we call it an offensive mon because it really only fits on an offensive team? or is it a defensive mon because ultimately screens are defensive moves, even if they're being used on an offensive team?
i personally lean towards the former in which case the current implementation makes sense, but if you preferred the latter, you could make screens neutral on the mon, and instead implement a team bonus sort of thing where certain moves on a mon affect the team score, but not the mon itself. i haven't thought too much about how to establish such a bonus and fit it into the averaging system. the easiest thing would be to, when determining the score of a mon, ignore screen bonus, but when determining the average score for its team, add the screen bonus to that mon prior to averaging, if i make myself clear...
Stalliness (mean: -0.625)
|#
-2.0|#####
|#########
-1.5|##################
|#########################
-1.0|#############################
|#############################
-0.5|##############################
|#########################
0.0|########################
|###############
+0.5|#########
|#####
+1.0|##
|#
+1.5|#
more negative = more offensive, more positive = more stall
one # = 81 teams ( 0.44%)