Name: Psychological Warfare
General Description: A Pokemon that can cause the opponent to make mistakes by presenting the illusion of immortality, hence generating a stressful environment in which the opponent's belief that they can control the battle or eventually win is compromised. Thus, the emotions of the player are manipulated in order to influence the battle's outcome.
Justification: The nerve and good judgement of a battler, as well as their capacity to handle stressful situations, is a well-documented factor in the outcome of a competitive Pokemon battle, but is relatively unexplored in all areas. We know how a single, low-chance miss or secondary effect activation can cause a less skilled player to give up on a battle within their own minds, or else forfeit entirely. Does this apply to higher-level players as well, in a way that can represent a consistent niche? We have a lot of Pokemon that can be described as generating a stressful situation by being a constant presence in the battle and generally being difficult to wear down, or possess the capacity to limit an opponent's perceived options, such as Sableye. However, few if any of these Pokemon are truly viable in the high-power environment that is the current state of OU. Can any Pokemon be viable in the current OU with these traits as their main positive? Certainly, a Pokemon that is specifically designed to exacerbate pre-existing situations represents a truly rich opportunity, and one which no other part of the site is in a position to investigate - this is a real chance for us to learn something about the game and how it operates.
Now, I should make it plain at this juncture that, yes, there are a lot of ways in which players can hypothetically accumulate stress over the course of a given battle. It could be the result of an unfortunate miss that ruined a perfectly good prediction, or fear over the opponent's Terrakion waiting in the wings for the moment your primary check is weakened, or growing irritation about your opponent's stall team, or even the relentless ticking of the timer in one's ears. These and many more are covered in far greater detail in
an old Smogon article written by obi (the linked article is the updated version for BW), which thoroughly explains the concept as it pertains to standard competitive battling, far better than I could. Here, all manner of psychological warfare is discussed, from pretending to be a less skilled player in order to encourage an opponent's sense of superiority to the tactic of manipulating the opponent using the chat system. However, this part of the article is the bit that this CAP concept exists to deal with:
The Art of Psychological Warfare said:
Take Jirachi with Protect, Wish, Doom Desire, and some filler move, most likely Body Slam (60% paralysis keeps most enemies from setting up). If you use Doom Desire, Wish, and then Protect, you damage your enemy, nullify its attack, and heal yourself, all in the same turn. This creates the illusion of invincibility, regardless of the actual effectiveness of the set. This is most effective against the player who believes you to be better than he is, but with the occasional Body Slam added in to paralyze, even the veteran player can find himself feeling outclassed by the brick wall that inexorably paralyzes his team, creating fears, however unfounded they may be, of a sweep by something slow, like Ursaring or Marowak.
The illusion of immortality, and the illusion that the battle is fully within the user's control, is the absolute core of this concept, insofar as it relates to the opponent's belief that they can win being compromised. As the article goes on to say, "[the] moment you assume your opponent is going to win is the moment you have lost". There are many more ways now that this can be achieved than back when this article was written, and there has never been a better time to investigate a concept that is so tied to the game of Pokemon yet so lamentably unexplored as of yet. There are other illusions concerned with stress, of course; most notably the illusion of the theoretical threat, such as the presence of a sweeper like Terrakion or Pinsir on the opposing team preview being held back, presumably for a late-game sweep. However, these are a pound a penny in OU nowadays, whereas here is something that truly does not currently exist, truly has a lot to teach us both about the game and the metagame, and may even be a positive effect in and of itself by encouraging novel strategies. It's a large black box just waiting to be opened.
Questions To Be Answered:
- Is a Pokemon whose effectiveness presumably strongly varies from opponent to opponent viable in the OU metagame?
- Is the ability to manipulate the opponent to such an extent a significant factor in the outcome of a competitive Pokemon battle?
- To what extent will this Pokemon's viability differ from battle to battle? Will it be more effective against different opponents? If so, which ones will it be more effective against?
- How strong and/or viable is "psychological warfare" as a strategy against more traditional, well-developed team strategies?
- Is it a trait of a top competitive player that they are more able to play against this Pokemon than a less skilled player?
Explanation: To make this absolutely clear from the get-go, this is not a concept that is suggesting the use of "annoyer" strategies such as SwagPlay or ParaFusion in an effort to simulate stress. I'd like to make this concept focused on the component of stress as applied to decision-making and belief, which will actually tell us something, as opposed to producing a Pokemon that is merely stressful because it is wholly dependent on the luck of the roll. That simply isn't interesting, so let us concentrate on the idea of stress as that which is separate from that of the standard response to "hax". In previous incarnations of this concept, I emphasised the deceptiveness aspect of the Psychological Warfare ideal, but now I absolutely want to focus on the concept of stress as it pertains to Psychological Warfare and its sources that are prevalent in the existing metagame. Uncertainty is certainly a recipe for stress, but it is not the only one, and the part that I want to address first is simply that of mental exhaustion from having to deal with the CAP, by creation of the illusion of invincibility. To be clear, this doesn't mean stalling the opponent out - It just means that the effort to KO the Pokemon and remove it from the game is large, and builds up to a point where options are restricted and the player feels that they are not in control. Hence, another point is that of giving the impression of limiting the opponent's options - were this hypothetical CAP to, say, spread paralysis as its
modus operandi, the opposing player may become stressed into making a decision that is costly in the long term if he feels that a single Pokemon on his team has to become paralysed. At this point, some examples may be helpful to emphasise this point.
One example that I would like to bring up first is Sableye. This is a Pokemon with the ability to Taunt before the opponent can move, spread burns around like candy, and then Recover off any damage taken, again before the opponent can move. If you do not possess a Pokemon such as Heatran or another that can switch into Sableye with relative impunity, it can be a severe nuisance, not least because no physical attacker can make a move against it without being burned. Sableye, however, is limited by its mediocre stats and its status as something of a one-trick pony, as well as its four-moveslot syndrome. A second example is that of Slowbro or Alomomola in the lower tiers of BW, although really any Regenerator Pokemon fits the bill to an extent - by restoring HP simply by switching out, the Pokemon becomes far harder to wear down, and the mental load on the opposing player becomes that much greater, as it appears that regardless of what they try to do, they simply cannot wear it down. Again, these Pokemon tend to be limited by lacklustre stats or simply the inability to fill a niche within the OU metagame.
So, here is a concept that has, in many ways, little precedent in terms of what already exists in the games. I do, however, want to make this clear - this Pokemon should, ideally, create stress from a defensive, rather than an offensive standpoint. There are plenty of examples of Pokemon that cause stress by simply hitting damn hard and thus limiting options by forcing sacrifice, but fewer defensive examples, particularly those that do not possess a high offensive potential on top. This is not only because this angle is more interesting, but also because it is more practical - being able to remain standing for the majority of the battle necessitates defensive competence, and since we want to create the illusion of invincibility, not that of steamrolling the opponent without a shred of difficulty, there is no necessity for high offensive stats. Now, making a Pokemon like this worthwhile tends, in the current state of OU, to fall into two separate categories - that of Sableye, where the opponent is subjected to a constant stream of moves like Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Knock Off, and the like, which wear down the opponent and give the impression that they are on a timer, and hence the need to remove the offending Pokemon from the game becomes that much greater. Alternatively, they could take the Alomomola route, where the threat to the opponent's team comes through the use of support moves such as Wish, Aromatherapy, and the like.
With this in mind, I find myself struck by the possibilities that present themselves. The Pokemon could, yes, simply act as team support and through chip damage to make the opponent feel like they are on a timer, but there are so many other things that could be done, that the game has given us to work with, that it would be a shame not to list just a few of them here, that I can think of off the top of my head. We could have a proper Regenerator + Switch Pokemon, as Mienshao is far too frail to be worth using in the current OU metagame, which would make use of Regenerator to offset the entry hazard damage accumulated by switching, which plagues Pokemon that rely on this ability, such as Rotom-W and CB Scizor. It could make use of a variation on the standard Substitute + Leech Seed strategy, as demonstrated by PttP in a recent SPL battle in terms of how WoW/Sub/Seed Gourgeist can generate stress through the illusion of immortality, again. It could be a Pokemon that excels in shuffling and pseudo-hazing to rack up entry hazard damage. It could mess around with forgotten support moves such as Light Screen and Reflect, or go the opposite route entirely with Toxic in combination with Infiltrator. We could make use of a move that is rarely seen in OU but has enormous potential under this concept's umbrella, such as Parting Shot. We could even experiment with something completely bananas, like Protean alongside support moves, but this would seem to be wholly unnecessary for the concept to succeed. Regardless, the point is that there are a vast number of directions that this concept could go in and potential strategies the resultant CAP could use.
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Now, the following is not part of the concept proposal; however, it is a discussion of some parts of the concept from IRC, featuring some notable CAP personalities. While the conversation was not particularly favourable to the above concept, and I did a very poor job of explaining it at the time, quite a few of the objections can be chalked up to either not reading the concept properly, dismissing it out of hand, or my stupidly posting last year's version of this concept instead of the actual updated version (which was my mistake, and I make no bones about it), mixed in with some insightful objections that, for sake of fairness, I feel I should invite you to consider. I'll outline some rebuttals underneath.
Code:
<srk1214> I'm not in favor of rehashing psychological warfare
<Pwnemon> i still
<Pwnemon> dont like it
<Pwnemon> at all
<Pwnemon> id much rather do something like theoretical threat
<bugmaniacbob> I really really want to do it though
<srk1214> especially when XY literally introduced a pokemon that does it
<Pwnemon> if we're going to explore that
<srk1214> Charizard
<bugmaniacbob> it's got so much to offer
<nyttyn> Mega Lucario also counted
<Pwnemon> dont u mean mega pinsir srk
<nyttyn> since there was the huge question of
<Pwnemon> and klefki
<srk1214> no. I mean Charizard because you don't know its set.
<nyttyn> "oh god is it just going to obliterate something or swords dance"
<bugmaniacbob> the hell does mega charizard have to do with psych
<srk1214> pinsir you at least know what it's going to do
<bugmaniacbob> oh for the love of
<bugmaniacbob> did you even read the concept
<Pwnemon> bmb we're not doing a pokemon
<nyttyn> Obviously not to the extent bob went to
<bugmaniacbob> "no offensive mons"
<Pwnemon> that literally just tries to troll the opponent
<Pwnemon> no
<Pwnemon> pls
<bugmaniacbob> it's not a troll mon either
<nyttyn> anything that's not offense
<nyttyn> has a hard time pulling off mind games on that leveloutside of trolling a la sableye.
<bugmaniacbob> its closest analogy would be something like regenerator slowbro
<bugmaniacbob> but actually worth while
<Pwnemon> how the hell does regen slowbro cause ur opponentt o choke
<srk1214> how does regenerator slowbro present psychological warfare in the slightest?
<bugmaniacbob> it doesn't because it sucks
<bugmaniacbob> regenerator presents a clear case of the illusion of immortality
<Pwnemon> if ur bad
<bugmaniacbob> by not being worn down, that's a huge psychological advantage
<bugmaniacbob> this concept is supposed to investigate that sort of thing
<Pwnemon> uh
<nyttyn> uh
<Pwnemon> only bad players
<Pwnemon> let themselves tilt
<srk1214> the closest thing I can think to psychological warfare that is more wallish is CM Unaware Clefable, but even that is just another set up sweeper
<Pwnemon> if youre good you wont ever lose to something that literally tries to tilt
<bugmaniacbob> not "hurr durr swagplay" or "hurr durr setup sweeper"
<Pwnemon> you
<nyttyn> That's not really a mind game, that's just basic pivoting...
<bugmaniacbob> it's got nothing
<bugmaniacbob> to do
<Pwnemon> your concept is literally "lets make something that can only beat bad players who play based on their penis instead of their head"
<bugmaniacbob> with mind games
<srk1214> lol then don't call it "psychological warfare..."
<nyttyn> BarackObama,A Pokemon whose strength in battle comes from its ability to force the opponent to make mistakes or to believe that they have no chance of winning - in short, by forcing the opponent to be defeated by their own stress.
<nyttyn> that's
<bugmaniacbob> STRESS
<nyttyn> the definiton of mind games
<bugmaniacbob> not mind games
<bugmaniacbob> STRESS
<Pwnemon> bmb
<Pwnemon> you are literally
<Pwnemon> saying
<nyttyn> the entire point of mind games is to get your opponent's head and make them choke, bob.
<srk1214> I don't see how you can divide those two
<Pwnemon> we make a pokemon
<Pwnemon> that causes ur opponent to tilt
<Pwnemon> WE ALRADY HAVE 10281348 OF THOSE
<Pwnemon> CONFUSE RAY TOXIC UMBREON
<bugmaniacbob> and how the hell would you know it can only beat bad players when literally nothing like it currently exists
<Pwnemon> because
<Pwnemon> good players
<Pwnemon> dont let themselves
<Pwnemon> tilt
<bugmaniacbob> how the hell would you know
<bugmaniacbob> seriously
<srk1214> Chansey can make entire teams lose and be on tilt
<Pwnemon> because if u let urself tilt
<Pwnemon> ur not a good player
<Pwnemon> Oo
<srk1214> that doesn't mean chansey is good at making your opponent tilt
<Pwnemon> see: furai
<srk1214> that means your opponent was shit at teambuilding
<DHR> rofl
<bugmaniacbob> we're supposed to be learning something from this
<Pwnemon> like literally the definition of good player includes the phrase "doesnt do stupid shit because they feel bad on a given day"
<bugmaniacbob> I'm struggling to see how you are arguing based on precedent when what I'm proposing has no precedent
<Pwnemon> im struggling to see how youre arguing to make a mon that is literally uncompetitive
<bugmaniacbob> and literally everyone is susceptible to stress and influences on decisions pwne
<srk1214> It has some precedent
<srk1214> subprotect gliscor
<bugmaniacbob> if you don't understand that I'm afraid your grasp of psychology has some issues
<bugmaniacbob> I guess that's a fair comparison actually
<bugmaniacbob> but even so, Gliscor's meant to stay in
<srk1214> but these are cases of your opponent not being prepared for a threat they should have been prepared for. Against any decent team, you just can't induce psychological pressure on someone with something other than a set up sweeper
<bugmaniacbob> my ideal would be one that could generate advantage even while not serving as a specific check
<bugmaniacbob> you can by stalling
<nyttyn> Well, you can snatch momentum with u-turn...
<bugmaniacbob> it's perfectly possible
<srk1214> no. you really can't.
<bugmaniacbob> yes, you can
<nyttyn> with what?
<Pwnemon> srk see: lord elyis
<Pwnemon> isnt he like 4-1
<Pwnemon> with the sames tall team every week
<bugmaniacbob> or at the very least, this is a Pokemon that /would be designed to/
<srk1214> lol that's because stall is pretty good this gen as long as you don't face
<srk1214> cube
<srk1214> luke
<srk1214> or pinsir
...
<nyttyn> anyways
<nyttyn> There's a big problem with a theoretical mon like this
<nyttyn> there are a huge, huge number of offensive threats, all highly varied within OU.
<bugmaniacbob> that's true, nyttyn
<nyttyn> Most offensive teams will be easily able to manage a switchin that 100% beats this mon every time
<bugmaniacbob> that would be a part of this CAP's challenge
<nyttyn> for example, your ghost/dark theroetical mon gets absolutely assraped by megavoir who can bypass substitute.
<bugmaniacbob> well, depends if it has Toxic or not
<bugmaniacbob> but yeah I take the point
<nyttyn> no it just clicks hyper voice and bypasses the sub
<nyttyn> and then ded.
<bugmaniacbob> Toxic on the switch?
<bugmaniacbob> then run away?
<nyttyn> yeah bob but your entire stress
<nyttyn> got entirely put on its head. and every offensive team will be packing an answer to this. meanwhile defensive teams will just stall wards(tm) you.
<bugmaniacbob> well that doesn't really matter unless literally no member of the team is susceptible to anything
<nyttyn> that's why things that aren't set up sweepers can't stress the opp to the point of being put at a massive disadvatnage - because the worst that it can do to you is a burn.
<bugmaniacbob> theoretically there's always something it could potentially do
<nyttyn> Which will REALLY SUCK but there are ways to get around that.
<nyttyn> And it's far from game ending.
<bugmaniacbob> burning and switching is still fairly legitimate
<nyttyn> yes but we already have rotom-w for tha. we already have jellicent for that.
<bugmaniacbob> and hey there's stuff like sleep powder and parting shot and what not
<bugmaniacbob> the possibilities are boundless
<bugmaniacbob> also rotom-w gets worn down quickly and jellicent isn't really fit for purpose any more
<nyttyn> yeah but most of those aren't manipulation, they're basic volturn/switch punish strats that are caused by most good walls/u-turners.
<nyttyn> what distinguishes your concept from them?
<bugmaniacbob> rotom-w is used because it counters talonflame and other stuff, not because it stresses the opponent
<bugmaniacbob> ideally the point of this thing's niche is that it can last for long periods of time sufficient for its presence to make an impact
<Pwnemon> what does that even mean
<bugmaniacbob> and there should be very few viable things that can actually switch into it safely
<Pwnemon> the only way to stress your opponent
<bugmaniacbob> it means it doesn't get worn down
<Pwnemon> is to have a good team matchup
<bugmaniacbob> its presence on the opponent's team is a strong incentive to prioritise removing it
<bugmaniacbob> and it has the capacity to execute its strategy independently of team match-up
<Pwnemon> so
<Pwnemon> genesect
<bugmaniacbob> no
<nyttyn> genesect wasn't very survivable tho
<bugmaniacbob> that gets worn down extremely easily
<bugmaniacbob> and focuses on offensive pressure
<nyttyn> If it's going to just do its thing no matter what, and it's defensive enough it can actually survive for a extended period of time, isn't this just a wall?
<bugmaniacbob> well, no
<bugmaniacbob> "wall" implies that it's meant to sit there and tank things
<bugmaniacbob> as its primary purpose
<Pwnemon> so what youre saying is
<nyttyn> so basically
<Pwnemon> we need a pokemon that can execute its strategy reliable
<nyttyn> this thing's just supposed to make the opponent rage and try to murder it?
<Pwnemon> we need a pokemon that puts pressure on the opponent
<bugmaniacbob> <nyttyn> this thing's just supposed to make the opponent rage and try to murder it?
<Pwnemon> so basically: make something ou
<bugmaniacbob> for lack of a more succinct way of putting it
<bugmaniacbob> yes
<bugmaniacbob> I question the term "rage"
<nyttyn> well, make angry, etc
<Pwnemon> so youre saying that its trying to make them
<DHR> why
<Pwnemon> play badly
<Pwnemon> all right
<DHR> why do you want a mon that does that
<bugmaniacbob> because it doesn't currently exist, it would teach us something about the game that we don't already know, and it would be a challenging building exercise
<dodrio> it exists in dusclops
<dodrio> that shit never dies
<dodrio> just burns all my pokes
<bugmaniacbob> I mean even the artwork could play some part
<bugmaniacbob> a particularly annoying art design would incentivise its removal
<nyttyn> Honest to god this sounds like a concept that only works on terrible players.
<bugmaniacbob> among the weak-minded
<bugmaniacbob> well that's the thing nyttyn
<nyttyn> The entire point of being a good player is that you don't choke, and that you dont make these kinds of mistakes.
<srk1214> ok bmb... the second you bring up artwork you know you need to stop
<srk1214> or at least you should know that
<bugmaniacbob> I don't know that it would be successful in OU. It's entirely possible that it would only be consistent on weaker players.
<nyttyn> Yeah and that's why we think this concept is terrible.
<nyttyn> It's obnoxious for the sake of being obnoxious.
<nyttyn> Nobody wants that.
<bugmaniacbob> but we really don't know that, however much we pretend to know otherwise.
<nyttyn> It might be successful
<bugmaniacbob> and the artwork was a joke. Calm down.
<nyttyn> but
<Pwnemon> literally the whole
<Pwnemon> art to being a good player
<nyttyn> I personally feel that a mon that is actually toxic to the game (entire intent is to piss people off) is not a concept that we should pursue.
<Pwnemon> is that you DONT PLAY ON EMOTION
<bugmaniacbob> I know enough about psychology to know that it affects everybody, and I consider this an exceptionally good opportunity for experiment
<bugmaniacbob> all people are subject to it pwne, only to greater or lesser degrees.
<nyttyn> Ignoring how successful it might be, ignoring its potential for a social experiment (which isn't what CAP is about ffs)
<nyttyn> we are literally making /v/ - the mon.
<Pwnemon> lol
<Canis_Majoris> you're implying 4chan can't make good fakemon
<Pwnemon> double lol
<bugmaniacbob> and it isn't obnoxious for sake of being obnoxious, it's meant to be stressful by holding opponents independently of team matchup
<Pwnemon> triple lol
<nyttyn> The only way to do that for anything that isn't a setup mon is be an incredibly obnoxious immortal prick.
<bugmaniacbob> I feel like you think that this Pokemon must necessarily use confuse ray or something
<nyttyn> otherwise wham, bam, thank you ma'am, power crept mons are just going to kill it.
<bugmaniacbob> I feel like there's some sort of cognitive disconnect going on here
<nyttyn> The stress factor is present in fighting games, so I see where bob's coming from.
<capefeather> isn't choking the most common accusation levelled at tournament players who lose
<bugmaniacbob> pwne says that good players don't play on emotion. I agree, and want to test this idea
<capefeather> well maybe "hax" is up there too
<nyttyn> Unlike fighting games, though, you can't force emotion in pokemon, because it is a turned based game.
<Pwnemon> the only time youll see people accept a lose is when they choke
<bugmaniacbob> how can you tell?
<Pwnemon> otherwise it was luck or team matchup
<nyttyn> A player can just take five secnds, take a deep breath, and calm down. They have the luxury of being able to calm down.
<Pwnemon> what if timer is on
<capefeather> oh right, "team matchup" is up there too
<srk1214> choking at the top level happens for sure
<nyttyn> Choking usually happens when it's a 50-50 tho
<srk1214> yeah I find a lot of what people call chokes is mispredicts
<nyttyn> also pwnemon
<Pwnemon> oh right 50-50s also
<nyttyn> that's why I say five seconds
<srk1214> which isn't really a choke...
<nyttyn> the timer is really geneorus and gives you plenty of time to take a few secs to breathe and calm yourself.
<Pwnemon> not in doubles really though
<Pwnemon> :s
<nyttyn> Yeah not so much in doubs.
<srk1214> for those who don't get the difference between a choke and a mispredict, I recommend this post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-doubles-discussion-replays.3497214/page-2#post-5201819
<bugmaniacbob> that's not exactly a difficult concept
<bugmaniacbob> anyway
<bugmaniacbob> everybody seems remarkably happy to throw around these views on when and how chokes happen
<bugmaniacbob> yet none of them are based on anything besides anecdotal evidence
<bugmaniacbob> here is an opportunity to, if not find out, at least establish some sort of data on the issue
<bugmaniacbob> Looking at the last 2 concept, I feel that CAP was punching way below its belt in terms of what could and should be pursued in the name of exploration
<bugmaniacbob> *concepts
<nyttyn> though I will say
<srk1214> it is undoubtedly true that the past two CAPs have had less "ambitious" concepts
<nyttyn> the idea itself is ambitious.
...
<paintseagull> To what extent will a Pokemon that relies primarily on the strength of the enemy controller be effective and viable in the X/Y metagame?
<paintseagull> I don't understand how this relates
<paintseagull> what do you mean strength
<bugmaniacbob> I mean mental strength, as supposedly separates high-level and low-level players
<bugmaniacbob> perhaps it could be changed to "Pokemon whose performance is contingent primarily on the mental strength of the enemy controller" or something
<paintseagull> hm well i feel like this idea could be solidified a bit
<paintseagull> what defines a mistake on the opponent's behalf?
<paintseagull> and what's the situation in which they'd make a mistake
<paintseagull> more specific than just 'stress'
<bugmaniacbob> a mistake that is made because of stress, where an altogether possible course of action is ignored or the controller limits his own options by not thinking a move through
<paintseagull> what's causing the stress? probably prediction difficulty, a high cost for a wrong move, a 50/50 chance of something happening or not so that it's hard to choose which side of the odds you want to play..?
<paintseagull> hm ok
<bugmaniacbob> everything is causing the stress
<bugmaniacbob> but here, specifically, is a Pokemon that exacerbates one part of it that we are interested in
<paintseagull> what everything? what's an example
<bugmaniacbob> well, constant switching, perceived difficulty in eliminating a key threat, and as srk and pwne have pointed out, the mere presence of an offensive Pokemon in the wings can all add up
<bugmaniacbob> it tends to be cumulative - the longer a battle goes on the more mental stress is accumulated
<bugmaniacbob> what is being focused here is specifically the perception that one is fighting a losing battle
<bugmaniacbob> *focused on, sorry
<bugmaniacbob> which I consider to be a large component of stress in any arena
<paintseagull> ok
<paintseagull> [*]To what extent will a Pokemon that relies primarily on the strength of the enemy controller be effective and viable in the X/Y metagame?
<paintseagull> imo just ditch this point
<bugmaniacbob> it almost certainly won't be a losing battle in actuality - the key is perception
<paintseagull> find a better one. "Is this Pokemon effective in the meta" is not a valid question - obviously our goal is to make it so
<bugmaniacbob> well, tbh I don't know how effective it would be
<capefeather> can the brain... ever rewind itself???
<bugmaniacbob> sure it can
<bugmaniacbob> just not on demand
<paintseagull> it's still not a very good question
<capefeather> I watch toom many tv show commercials <.<
<capefeather> *too many
<bugmaniacbob> I suppose, but that would be one of the things we'd be interested in finding out
<paintseagull> almost everyone puts this question in their concept and it's dumb since it's a question we ask of every CAP creation by default
<bugmaniacbob> I guess so
<bugmaniacbob> I'll label it for removal and see if I can come up with either a better wording or a better question
<paintseagull> it always is. but it's never something that makes a concept interesting
<paintseagull> how about [*]To what extent can a single Pokemon increase the stress level of the enemy controller?
<bugmaniacbob> I suppose that's reasonable, but part of the emphasis of the project is on whether it affects different people, well, differently
<bugmaniacbob> "to what extent" implies uniformity in result
<paintseagull> true enough
As I stated in the concept, this is neither a Pokemon that is supposed to intimidate by being an offensive powerhouse, nor is it a Pokemon entirely designed to "troll" the opponent, and nor is it a Pokemon that is designed to "be obnoxious for the sake of being obnoxious". More to the point, I personally think it is somewhere between casually dismissive and childishly naive to state that all good players are absolutely immune to any form of psychological manipulation in this respect - I think I know enough about psychology to say that, at the very least, this is absolutely not something that can be outright stated without evidence to back it up. Cognitive biases and conditioning are everywhere - and to write them off based on the feeling that you either are influenced or you are not strikes me as a poor argument against the concept. Certainly I personally think it likely that the better players are also those less likely to be influenced in this respect and more likely to calmly and rationally think decisions through, but that doesn't make this concept meaningless at all. This would be a great thing to investigate and confirm for ourselves, and if it turns out that this Pokemon performs poorly against those of higher ability, well then, so what? That's one of the questions to be answered by the Project regardless. I also disagree that only set-up sweepers are currently in a position to put the opponent at an absolute disadvantage - but this is one other pre-supposition that would be very nice to actually test out in practice.
If you are one of those people who only wants something fun to play with on the ladder or something that is likely to be successful, then I will not deny that this is almost certainly not the CAP for you. In addition, there are probably a lot of great concepts out there which are more your cup of tea. But, to reiterate, I really feel that CAPs 5 and 6 were really, again, punching below their weight. We've shown that we can do great and complex concepts well and we get a heck of a lot out of them, and I'd like to start the XY generation, as we did with the BW generation, on an ambitious footing. This concept provides that, and more besides.
I'll highlight some of the other concepts I really like in a future post if I have time.