Announcement SV National Dex UU Stage 4.4: Two Stroke Killing Machine

[Arishem]

Following the recent tiering chances and the now formal introduction of the Teal Mask DLC, the council has been closely monitoring the new drops that have managed to make their way down here. As of this announcement, we’ve arrived at a veritable consensus after some extensive discussion amongst ourselves, and decided to vote on the two most outstanding Pokemon that made it to the top of our watchlist since – those being Kartana and Ursaluna.

Given the volatile state of the tier as a result of the ongoing developments made prevalent by NDPL, we decided to conduct a vote with more multifaceted prompts to choose from, most notably adding the option to retest said Pokemon after banning them to ensure their absence from tournaments. The results were as follows:

	Kartana	Ursaluna
Arishem	Ban (Retest)	Do Not Ban
sanguine	Ban	Suspect
Runo	Do Not Ban	Do Not Ban
Niadev	Ban (Retest)	Do Not Ban
Pubo	Ban (Retest)	Do Not Ban
TBIC106	Ban (Retest)	Suspect (2)
Meminger21	Ban (Retest)	Suspect (2)
Outcome	Suspect (Banned from NDPL)	No Action

With 5/7 votes required for a specific outcome to be chosen. We’ve decided to suspect test Kartana while keeping it banned from NDPL for the time-being. Ursaluna also notably received a few suspect votes, and will be expected to join the rest of the Pokemon documented on our current watchlist, so stay tuned for that.


Suspect Reasoning:
Kartana’s presence in UU marks a historically outstanding example of power creep in the generation seemingly stacked with only one example above another. Wielding an utterly immense Attack stat eclipsing even several Uber-ranked Pokemon before it, a superb speed tier only below the cutting edge of base 110, and a palatable defensive prowess with great defensive typing and solid physical bulk. Kartana has immediately made itself an instant hit among the offensive threats now centered around dealing with it, and holds a notable strain that translates to more than the offensive potential it possesses to topple over the list of answers available against it in the metagame.

Present Day Prelude - Tremors

Cinderace: How did you know about that? It’s none of your business.

Tornadus: You made it my business when you agreed to let me help you.
I knew someone like you, someone who attained the power of boosting items. He was my friend.

It warped his usage stats to the point where I didn’t even recognize him anymore…

Cinderace: And who was this guy? How come I never heard of him, or the use of boosting items?
Is there anything you can tell me about him?

Tornadus: Yeah, I had to hurl a *Bleakwind Storm* at his blades.

Choice Band, with Kartana’s natural power already presenting an iota of what its main role aims to accomplish in most games, skyrockets Kartana’s wallbreaking potential to virtually unmatched levels, 2HKOing naturally bulky Pokemon such as specially defensive Celesteela, while also expanding Kartana’s reach in regards to forcing KOes on Pokemon it otherwise wouldn’t, such as against Iron Treads and Clefable. Complimented by remarkable coverage moves in the form of Sacred Sword for Steels such as Scizor and Bisharp, Knock Off for item removal and the ability to hit Ghosts in Aegislash and Skeledirge, or even Aerial Ace in the last slot to destroy a major would-be stop in Buzzwole without the need for Future Sight support. Should this set manage to find its way in, it can become very difficult to stop from grabbing an automatic KO without the presence of specific defensive strategies, such as scouting with Protect or Regenerator walls, or select checks such as Skarmory, Z-Scizor, and Mandibuzz, and can often lead to irredeemable progress being made in the long-run.

Choice Scarf sets trade said boost in power for the ability to outrun the entire boosted metagame, being only outsped by opposing scarfers such as the Lati-twins and Excadrill under sand. In conjunction with Kartana’s Attack stat accentuated further by its ability to snowball via Beast Boost, this set can easily end games on the spot altogether, especially against teams provided it can get into a situation where the weakened opposition lacks safe resistances to any singular move or ability to avoid the KO threshold altogether. To top things off, Scarf Kartana also manages to fit a crucial utility move in Defog to clear hazards for its team in a pinch, or simply threatens to cripple a huge portion of an enemy team with Knock Off before attempting to make its way in for a sweep.

12/12/22 - The Promise

Tornadus: It’s Week 1, and there’s a breeze.

Tapu Lele: *uses Future Sight*
They’re coming, tournament players. Armed.

Kartana: You know, when we first tried to board the tournament scene together back in Generation 7, it was as strangers.

But now it’s as brothers.

Tornadus: See you in the Gen 9 National Dex UU Kickoff Tournament.

This finally leads us to arguably Kartana’s flagship set, cited by the community as the most threatening as a whole. Swords Dance allows Kartana to perfectly punish the aforementioned scouting attempts to setup and threaten nearly the entire tier at +2, and can opt for different boosting options to target its few checks on top of this. Z-Giga Impact can be tech’d to break past Buzzwole and defensive Grasses such as Amoonguss, while also threatening faster Fire-type pivots such as Cinderace attempting to switch in, whereas Fightinium Z can threaten to overwhelm Skarmory at +2 after chip. Beyond this, Life Orb and Protective Pads make for perfectly capable options, and the former occasionally sees use with a Speed-boosting variant over Attack, owing to its ability to break past most speed control options while retaining most of its offensive capabilities against defense. Kartana’s STAB combo with such a set additionally presents the natural advantage of bypassing common Unaware Pokemon on defensive teams, with the exception of Skeledirge itself.

However, counterplay to Kartana in spite of the sets above, while certainty more than situational and concerning enough to have warranted the following course of action, will also be the key factor as to determining whether it is truly banworthy or not. To start, even if it's true that most of, if not all of these Pokemon can act as a singular answer to Kartana in the long-run, the current state of the metagame is often such that many of them will already see use in tandem with each other, which also allows teams to have more varied ways in minimizing the progress Kartana can make as a whole. Faster threats such as Fire-type pivots in Iron Moth and Cinderace, the Lati-twins, common Choice Scarfers such as Hydreigon and Galarian Zapdos, and even specific setup sweepers in Galarian Moltres, Ceruledge, Victini, and Serperior that can punish choice-locked Kartana, all pack the necessary bulk and resistances to stomach at least a few hits in the short-term and force it out accordingly. This is supplemented by the added prevalence of Pokemon which Kartana can struggle to dance around in a vacuum, such as Iron Hands and King’s Shield from Aegislash, or against potential moves used to cripple it from Pokemon that it would otherwise force out in almost every given scenario, such as Flamethrower or Thunder Wave physically defensive Clefable and Galarian Slowking.

10/1/23 - Invasion

Tornadus: The National Dex OU ladder, the tiering council, all this was you. They worked for you.

Kartana: Well, I have my allies, just as you have yours. Excadrill, for example. I suppose you’re wondering why he hasn’t taken his Rapid Spin yet. Don’t worry, he’s still alive, for now.

Tornadus: What do you want?

Kartana: 10* months ago I made you a promise - Do you remember?

Well, I’m here to fulfil it.

The limitation of opportunities Kartana can gauge against teams are also reinforced by the options to deal with Kartana from a defensive standpoint. Most notably, Skarmory acts as a near-perfect answer to all sets barring Z-Sacred Sword, and can easily set up Spikes or threaten it sufficiently with Body Press in return. Buzzwole is similar in this regard, although it risks falling over to Aerial Ace or Future Sight support. Mega Latias remains a superb defensive presence and setup sweeper that uses its bulk to accumulate setup opportunities - against Kartana being no exception, as it also has the crucial advantage of outspeeding and OHKOing back with Aura Sphere, and only really fears the 2HKO from Choice Scarf Knock Off or Normalium Z after some chip damage. Unaware Skeledirge, while vulnerable to being picked off by Knock Off and entry hazards after losing boots, is very concrete in its own right and can negate Swords Dance boosts of any kind should Kartana not have Pursuit support. Lastly, the recent prevalence of Wish Alomomola and Regenerator-based cores can allow teams to account for Kartana’s moveset and respond accordingly, especially as Scald burns from the former and moves such as HP Fire from the Grasses can dissuade Kartana from attempting to trade with them. Other, more niche and situational answers in defensive Celesteela, Intimidate Salamence, and Mandibuzz also exist down the line, but are more difficult to justify for such a role owing to their greater flaws with longevity and traits related to the current metagame. Overall, we believe that Kartana is more than deserving of a suspect test at this time.


Suspect Test Information

• Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 40 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 20 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 40 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice.

Minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
79	40
79.2	39
79.4	38
79.6	37
79.8	36
80	35
80.2	34
80.4	33
80.6	32
80.8	31
81	30
81.2	29
81.4	28
81.6	27
81.8	26
82	25
82.2	24
82.4	23
82.6	22
82.8	21
83	20

• You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NDUU9KART. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NDUU9KART Arishem.
• You may not impersonate or mock another user with your account name. If there is any slight hesitation, you're probably better off picking a different name. We reserve the right to null your voting requisites if you are found impersonating or mocking another user with your account name. Moderator discretion will be applied.
• If you are found trying to manipulate voting requisites in any way, you will be met with a harsh infraction. Manipulating voting requisites ranges from faking your screenshot to asking another user to forfeit.
• The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Kartana, will be allowed on the National Dex UU ladder for the next two weeks so that we can properly assess its position in the metagame.
• This suspect test will go on for two weeks. It will last until October the 22nd at 11:59 PM GMT-4.

 

[Lupla]

I wonder if there's anything to say about Kart that hasn't been said already but i tried to do an actual good post here for the first time. Thanks to Runo Gangsta Spongebob and Arishem for all the help!



Kartana has always been the type of pokemon that, while having to be taken into account when building, isn't really something that severely restricts building either, if you've seen the discord or at least the post i made on meta thread then you might know what my standing on Kartana is at the moment. Despite how things are looking like, this tier does have the options to handle it (courtesy of being similar to both SM OU and last gen's ND OU) without going out of your way to do so and that's where i wanna get to in this post.

Setup Opportunities ​

Despite Kartana being a Grass type in a meta full of Alomomola, M-Tyranitar or Hippowdon, a lot of the time everything is capable of either outright threatning an OHKO, 2HKO or take advantage of it in some way.

Hide

The Faster Checks (Naturally Faster or Choiced)​	() () ​
The Slower Checks​	​
The Risky Setups​	() ​

A good amount of these are no strangers to the meta, they were staples, good pokemon or recent additions that are perfoming quite well in general and the only one who really raised in usage to respond Kartana was Scarf Magnezone which, while flawed in some ways, is still a decent choice that does what it needs to do (Trapping Skarmory or Scizor primarily).

This is different compared to other similar choices in the setup role like Wellspring, a competition on the offensive setup Grass type who, despite sharing similar weaknesses, often out-performs it with a better speed tier, better stab combination, easier setup and a more spammable move in Ivy Cudgel, on the other hand we have Iron Hands (pun intended) who despite lacking in speed, makes up for it's amazing bulk and longevity which makes it capable of being more than just a potential sweeper. These two may lack the devastating power that Kartana posseses but make up for not just having the necessary power anyway but also being more reliable at their role.

Choice Variants

If you ask me i think this is where Kartana excels the best at. Choice Band is a more immediate breaker that, with proper prediction and moves, is capable of dismantling squads whenever it gets in as it's not a set that requires a turn of setup that might very well be interrupted, with a better use of Knock Off than SD variants would attempt to when their matchup isn't good thanks to the higher power to knock out potential Swords Dance switchins such as Cinderace or Enamorus (after rocks damage). Choice Scarf sets are also quite similar, while lacking in power, they're capable of threatning many of Kartana's offensive checks thanks to the speed it gains but also has the ability to be a good cleaner in the late game when the opposition is weakened, giving Kartana a potential Beast Boost to work with, it can even function as a emergency Defogger. They both have decent defensive utility since Kartana is comfortable with taking one hit from grounds like Excadrill or come in on weaker walls like Clefable or Tapu Fini.


This sounds all great but this also has it's problems. Kartana may be strong and it also has Knock Off as a decent move to throw out but other than that everything in it's arsenal is resisted by a lot which is why i've mentioned at the start of this section about how it can perform this with proper prediction and the correct moveset. To start with, what was said before about defensive pokemon during the Swords Dance talk heavily applies here, due to how much you see things like Skarmory (who often punishes you on contact AND Spikes) but what's worse is in matchups like Hyper Offense which completely removes Kartana as a threat due to not just their bulk off Screens alone but also being filled with a lot of resists that Kartana can't hope to check as well as it would agaisn't Bulky Offense or Balance.


We could take a look at similar Grass types on these roles in Meowscarada and Serperior who are significantly faster (Mainly Meowscarada). The former has one of the best speed tiers in the meta, has a wider movepool that gives it better targets to revenge kill (notably Thunder Punch and Play Rough) and more splashable utility in Spikes or U-Turn's momentum. The latter still outspeeds Iron Moth, Wellspring and the Latis while keeping a snowball effect in Contrary Leaf Storm but also has access to Glare which allows it to stop nearly every offensive threat consistently. Kartana just doesn't have the same versatility, support and consistency that these two have on the majority of the meta.

"Why is Kartana suspected then?"

​

Despite being more linear than it's competition and having notable flaws, the threat of Swords Dance Kartana still prevails, having the power to muscle through such answers with either Fightinium Z or Normalium Z can also be taken advantage of since most of the time it forces an OHKO and while Kartana may not be able to sweep through entire teams as easily, its capable of luring in those hard checks into a strong All-Out Pummeling or Breakneck Blitz to potentially open up massive holes in a structure. A non-HP Fire M-Venusaur or Buzzwole facing Kartana off might not be able to handle the following Aegislash or Iron Hands that they would otherwise be able to handle, same thing applies to Skarmory when Kartana is paired up with partners such as Excadrill or Gyarados.

Ocassions where Kartana can sweep ARE possible tho as slower squads with Mola cores are really fearful of a Kartana who has decent setup points like Chansey and can, once again, either get a clean up itself or open holes for the rest of your team to take advantage of, the same thing can be applied to certain Sand structures as those are sometimes too slow and aren't able to afford Kart answers as easily as normal teams do (often needing something like Scarf Enamorus or Magnezone alongside pressuring the opposition so that it barely has a shot to come in).

It can prob be too stressing to handle Kartana due to how carefully it needs to be dealt with and being another relevant offensive menace in a tier that's already having enough with things like Gyarados, Cinderace, Wellspring or Iron Moth that can be as deadly as them due to a lack of a true answer compared to them, both decisions of keeping it or not are valid but personally i'm voting for Do Not Ban.

I apologize if this was too long and it's prob not as good as i wanted it to be but it's the first time i made a suspect post in a long time (last time with Goltres was something really bad). Huge thanks to the people who helped me with this and i'll pray for your reqs to go well.

 

[Danbear02]

Kartana being back in UU is reminiscent of the days of Alpha where we had and and all the other brokens down here too, and though that thought may be enough to make many thing Kart is too good to stay, I think Kartana is still broken for many other reasons. The previous posts do a much better job in explaining the meta in terms of tournaments, but as a ladder warrior and someone who mainly experiences this great format of National Dex UU from ladder, I want to explain why Kartana's ladder presence makes it worth voting BAN.



Let's get the Big Bird out of the way first. has been hailed as the universal Kartana check, being able to switch in again and again and abuse Kartana's presence to lay Spikes. is, in my opinion, only a Scarf Kartana check. The only thing Scarf Kartana can do is dent it with Sacred Sword on the switch and hope that Rocks chip can wear it down eventually. However, Choice Band and Swords Dance sets both do fairly well against . Here are some calcs:

calcs

Choice Band:
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 107-127 (32 - 38%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 107-127 (32 - 38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 72+ Def Skarmory: 122-144 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 72+ Def Skarmory: 122-144 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Swords Dance:
+2 252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 154-182 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 143-169 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 143-169 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 277-327 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 72+ Def Skarmory: 162-191 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72+ Def Skarmory: 315-371 (94.3 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72+ Def Skarmory: 315-371 (94.3 - 111%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Skarm Retaliation:
252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 160-190 (61.7 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
72+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 142-168 (54.8 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kartana through Reflect: 80-95 (30.8 - 36.6%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO

: Choice Band sets almost always lead with a Knock Off into , and then can proceed to Sacred Sword it on the switch in, forcing it almost always Roost lest the Kartana stay in and pick it off with a 3HKO. Kartana's use of Knock off also allows it to avoid taking Rocky Helmet damage, the easiest way to wear down Kartana into Body Press range, which does not OHKO Kartana from full due to its decent Physical Bulk. There are clear downsides to this though, as constantly clicking Sacred Sword can be abused, but I've never really found "predict better" to be a compelling argument for either side of a ban discussion.

Now moving on to Swords Dance sets, I would argue that even non Fightinium-Z Kartana sets beat . If still has its item, +2 Knock off does at minimum 46 percent, which when combined with +2 Sacred Sword does 89 percent, the perfect number to 2HKO it after a boost with Stealth Rocks up. Sacred Sword's ability to ignore stat changes also means that cannot switch in and then Iron Defense on the Knock Off, as Sacred Sword would still kill. Additionally, Body Press doesn't KO Kart even after Rocky Helmet Chip. While Kartana will be left at almost no health after this exchange, removing is huge for teammates like and , and if other faster members on the opponents team have been removed, then a +3 Kart will easily be able to tear up the rest of the team. Kart can even run Normalium Z on such a set to bypass other checks such as and , though dropping Leaf Blade as a strong stab is suspect.

Kartana cannot fix all of its issues with one set. Run , and be walled by or . Go with , and you have your work cut out for you if your opponent has a . Run Swords Dance, and be revenged by faster mons like and . And while I mentioned that "predict better" is a bad argument, Kartana does sometimes have 4-Moveslot syndrome and can find it hard to click the right move all of the time.

However, the lack of defensive counterplay to Kartana seems problematic in my eyes, though maybe that's just stall player brain. Defensively, building around Kartana is an absolute nightmare, with very few defensive counters, and this brings us to the main issue.

The main issue lies with Kartana's place within the ladder as a strain on teambuilding. Building on the National Dex UU ladder is already difficult, with prominent threats like already being strains on the builder. However, with all the other threats like , , and that Lupla and others have mentioned being too much for the tier, Kartana pushes those issues over the edge. Sure, you could use to check a few of these problematic mons, but it doesn't check Kartana. Kartana's synergy in dealing with options that check other problematic mons mean that it is impossible to build a team that can adequately deal with all the broken. In my opinion, that means we should ban Kartana, then move on to ban other issues such as or , but the presence of these problematic threats does not mean we should not ban Kartana. For these reasons, I will be voting BAN.

Oh and also, . So yea, prolly should ban this Swordy Boi.

 

[Arishem]

Kartana has been banned!

10/24/23 - Unthinkable