Metagame SS LC

Éric

mons is mons
is a Pre-Contributor
Approved by Fiend and Coconut, copied from Acehunter1's SM LC thread. thanks to Hacker for the help
:ss/mienfoo: :ss/grookey: :ss/koffing: :ss/porygon:
Why play SS LC?
  • It's balanced and diverse: The meta has a wide range of viable threats and team archetypes, and each individual Pokemon tends to have many viable sets to choose from. It's a tier that encourages the player to build lots of teams; it even allows for easy innovation.
  • It's accessible: even though it doesn't share many metagame threats with Home SV LC, this tier is really similar to other old gens like SM and ORAS LC, having similar Pokémon and strategies being good. Also, since it is the latest old generation, it has a large playerbase and many resources, which are up to date.
  • It's very unique: there are lots of interactions that can only happen, or only do so regularly, in SS LC, like Koffing's Neutralizing Gas, Natu's Magic Bounce or the lack of Hidden Power.
Resources
Viability Ranking
Sample Teams
Role Compendium
 

Éric

mons is mons
is a Pre-Contributor
==Viability Rankings==

S Rank
:mienfoo: Mienfoo

A+ Rank
:porygon:
Porygon
:diglett: Diglett
:koffing: Koffing
:abra: Abra
:pawniard:
Pawniard

A Rank
:ferroseed: Ferroseed
:ponyta: Ponyta
:mareanie: Mareanie
:natu:
Natu

A- Rank
:grookey: Grookey
:carvanha: Carvanha
:tyrunt: Tyrunt
:frillish: Frillish


B+ Rank
:timburr: Timburr
:drilbur: Drilbur
:magnemite:
Magnemite
:staryu:Staryu

B Rank
:trapinch: Trapinch
:larvesta: Larvesta
:archen: Archen
:Vulpix: Vulpix
:charmander: Charmander
:mudbray: Mudbray

B- Rank
:dwebble: Dwebble
:onix:Onix
:morelull: Morelull
:foongus: Foongus
:pancham: Pancham

C Rank
:farfetch Faretch'd-Galar
:munchlax: Munchlax
:shellos-east: Shellos
:golett: Golett
:Sandygast: Sandygast
 

Éric

mons is mons
is a Pre-Contributor
==Role Compendium==

Format: solid at what it does || (shaky at doing so)

Section 1: Offensive roles
Speed related roles

These Pokémon have different ways to control speed, whether it be via natural speed, held items or priority moves.

Pokémon with 19 speed or higher

:abra: :diglett: :ponyta: :staryu: || (:ponyta-galar: :elekid: :wingull: :meowth:)

Choice Scarf users

:porygon: :magnemite: :charmander: || (:mienfoo: :diglett::mudbray: :archen: :vulpix: :amaura: :golett:)


Priority moves users

Fake Out

:Mienfoo: || (:grookey: :meowth:)

Grassy Glide

:grookey:

Sucker Punch

:Pawniard: :Diglett: || (:stunky:)

First Impression

:trapinch:

Feint

:trapinch: || (:mienfoo: :meowth:)

Mach Punch

:timburr:

Quick Attack

:bunnelby:

Vacuum Wave

:croagunk:

Ice Shard

:shellder: :snover:

Aqua Jet

:Corphish: || (:carvanha:)

Knock Off users
These Pokémon can utilize the move Knock Off to remove opposing Pokémon's items.

:mienfoo: :pawniard: :ferroseed: :grookey: :mareanie: :timburr: :archen: || (:abra: :farfetch :pancham: :corphish: :meowth::wingull:)

Wallbreakers
These Pokémon utilize their huge strength coupled with great stabs and/or good coverage to break holes in the opposing team.

:mienfoo: :abra: :pawniard: :porygon: :grookey: :ponyta: :mudbray: :ponyta-galar: :carvanha::pancham: :archen: :charmander: || (:staryu: :vulpix: :stunky: :bunnelby: :farfetch :wingull: :golett: :Corphish:)

Pivot moves users
These Pokémon are able to mantain offensive momentum using moves such as U-Turn, Volt Switch, Flip Turn or Teleport.

:mienfoo: :natu::porygon: :grookey: :carvanha: :magnemite: :archen: :slowpoke: :larvesta: || (:staryu: :bunnelby: :elekid: :pancham: :wingull: :chinchou: :meowth:)

Trappers
These Pokémon are able to trap opposing foes, whether it's all of them or depending of their typing.

:diglett: :trapinch: || (:magnemite: :wynaut:)

Set up sweepers
These Pokémon are able to use some moves or abilities to boost their stats, and likely wreak havoc amongst the opposing team.

Agility

:porygon:

Flame Charge

:ponyta: || (:vulpix:)

Calm Mind

:natu: || :ponyta-galar:

Speed Boost

:carvanha: || (:venipede:)

Iron Defense

:magnemite: || (:mareanie:)

Charge Beam

:magnemite:

Dragon Dance

:tyrunt: :onix: || (:corphish:)

Curse

:munchlax: :shellos:

Amnesia

:shellos:

Weak Armor

:onix: :dwebble: || (:sinistea:)

Shell Smash

:dwebble: :shellder:

Nasty Plot

:spritzee: :sinistea: :croagunk: || (:stunky:)

Swords Dance

:grookey: :pancham::farfetch || (:bunnelby: :sandshrew-alola: :corphish: :drilbur:)

Rapid Spin

:staryu: || (:drilbur: :sandshrew-alola:)

Weather setters
These Pokémon are able to set up weather with their abilities to help their teammates.

Sun

:vulpix: || (:diglett:)

Hail

:snover: || (:amaura:)

Weather abusers
These Pokémon utilize the field's weather in its favor, whether by having a speed-boosting ability or by the weather boosting their stabs.

Sun

:ponyta: :charmander:

Hail

:sandshrew-alola:

Section 2: Defensive roles
Hazards setters

These Pokémon support their teams setting up hazards.

Stealth Rock

:pawniard: :ferroseed: :diglett: :onix: :sandygast::drilbur:|| (:mudbray: :dwebble: :amaura: :golett:)

Spikes

:ferroseed: || (:dwebble: :bunnelby: :venipede:)

Hazard control
These Pokémon support their teams getting rid of the hazards on their field, or preventing them.

Rapid Spin

:staryu::drilbur: || (:sandshrew-alola: )

Magic Bounce

:natu:

Defog

:timburr: || (:cottonee:)

Screens setters
These Pokémon support their teams by using moves that effectively boost their teammates' bulk.

Reflect & Light Screen

:natu: :staryu: :abra:

Memento

:diglett: || (:cottonee: :stunky::vulpix: :koffing:)

Aurora Veil

:amaura:

Mienfoo checks

Defensive

:koffing: :mareanie: :foongus: || (:larvesta: :spritzee: :slowpoke: :shellos::cottonee: :venipede:)

Offensive

:abra: :natu: :porygon: :ponyta-galar: :archen: || (:charmander: :stunky:)

Abra checks

Defensive

:pawniard: :ferroseed: :porygon: :frillish: :magnemite: :munchlax: || (:spritzee::wynaut:)

Offensive

:diglett: :porygon: :grookey: :mudbray: :trapinch: :carvanha: :larvesta: :magnemite: || (:charmander: :stunky: :sandshrew-alola: :elekid:)

Porygon checks

Defensive

:pawniard: :ferroseed: :porygon: :frillish: :magnemite: :munchlax: || (:spritzee::wynaut:)

Offensive

:grookey: :mudbray: :trapinch: :onix: :magnemite: :timburr: :tyrunt: :archen: || (:diglett: :mienfoo: :croagunk: :pancham: :charmander::sandshrew-alola:)

Pawniard checks

Defensive

:mienfoo: :trapinch: :mudbray: :ponyta: :larvesta: :timburr: || (:pancham::shellos:)

Offensive

:mienfoo: :diglett: :mudbray: :ponyta: :onix: || (:charmander: :vulpix: :farfetch :magby:)

Grookey checks

Defensive

:koffing: :foongus: :ponyta: :larvesta::morelull: || (:ferroseed: :mareanie: :venipede:)

Offensive

:ponyta: :trapinch: || (:mienfoo: :natu: :pawniard: :diglett: :stunky: :charmander: :vulpix: :magby: :sandshrew-alola:)

Ponyta checks

Defensive

:staryu: :mareanie: :slowpoke: :onix: :porygon: :frillish: :sandygast: :munchlax: || (:mienfoo: :mudbray: :wynaut:)

Offensive

:diglett: :staryu: :mudbray: :trapinch: :onix: :tyrunt: :carvanha: :archen: || (:mienfoo: :dwebble: :shellder: :chinchou: :drilbur: :corphish:)

Staryu checks

Defensive

:ferroseed: :foongus: :frillish: :porygon: :slowpoke: :munchlax: :shellos: || (:magnemite: :mienfoo: :mareanie: :cottonee: :chinchou: :snover: :wynaut:)

Offensive

:grookey: :diglett: :porygon: :magnemite: || (:mienfoo: :trapinch: :tyrunt: :elekid:)

Ground checks

Defensive

:natu: :frillish: :slowpoke: :porygon: || (:mienfoo: :koffing: :shellos: :cottonee:)

Offensive

:grookey: :staryu: :porygon: :carvanha: :archen: || (:mienfoo: :diglett: :shellder: :wingull: :snover: :sandshrew-alola::corphish: :wynaut:)

Clerics
This Pokémon is able to use Wish to heal its health or its teammate's.

:spritzee:
 
Last edited:

Colin

formerly BeardedDrakon
is a Tiering Contributor
LCPL Champion
I played SS LC in LCPL a good amount, and since the tournament is over bar tiebreaks I can now post my meta opinions without leaking. I will be doing that in the form of VR noms.

:diglett: A+ -> S:

I am doing this nom for 2 reasons. One is that Mienfoo, while still being the best Pokemon in the tier, is less essential than it was with Timburr + Larvesta cores being an alternative for a few bulky offenses. Another is that Diglett is an extremely good glue that both enables offenses amazingly and is the best way to limit LO Abra, Magnemite, and Ponyta from freely taking multiple kills. Air Balloon sets in particular can both counter trap some other Diglett sets or avoid being trapped themselves, while other sets such as Pdef Eviolite, LO, and Choice Scarf all have important niches in the builder as well. In my opinion, Diglett is almost as needed as Mienfoo on most teams, and is as important to beat in the builder as Mienfoo. The only thing that made Diglett dependably worse this LCPL is the rise of Scarf Pawniard (Scarf Dig and Evio Pdef Dig can revenge kill though).

:abra: A+ -> A:

This one is very simple; LO Abra, usually its most dangerous set, can be reliably limited to only getting one kill by Air Balloon Diglett since the threat of being counter trapped isn't there. Scarf Pawniard becoming more common also makes Abra more prediction reliant. In spite of these two things, LO Abra is still among the scariest Pokemon in the tier and is pretty much unwallable. its teams also have ways to win vs AB dig, since Abra can still take a kill and it has other threats such as Magnemite + Dig and a defensive backbone to fall back on. Shed Shell + Knock Abra has seen some usage, but it falters against Ferro and has a 4mss wanting both substitute and submission.

:frillish: A- -> A:

Frillish is bulky, amazing vs fire types, and actually very good at forcing progress with the recent taunt sets. Wisp sets are still very good vs physical attackers such as Mienfoo, and it's one of the better answers into Sun teams, though its not infallible. It's very dependable since it is defensively useful every game, and can force progress reliably.

:morelull: B- -> A-:

Morelull is now the second best Fighting type counter. It has spore which often forces in Natu or claims something, it hits decently hard, has reliable recovery, and it has an extremely unique defensive profile. It compresses a water type switch in to your fight answer, and doesn't give entry to certain threats such as non Sludge Diglett and Abra, and can be a dark resist for Scarf Pawniard. Effect Spore might not be reliable, but it can punish U-turns among other things. Morelull's defensive profile is not without downsides though; its weak to all the other fighting type counters, and it doesn't choke regen Pokemon like Koffing does. Its also very weak to Poison Jab Mienfoo and Sludge Bomb Diglett which are used to snipe it.

:ferroseed: A -> A-:

Ferroseed is often passive and is a very bad rocker since it has difficulties breaking through Natu. Its spikes sets are very dangerous long term if rocks can be set by a teammate though. Because of these limitations, it only really fits well on bulkier balances, and it needs backup vs Abra since it cannot wall fire punch sets. Its role compression of being able to switch into water types is less useful on many teams, since they are less common, and can also be done by using Morelull as your fighting resist.

:larvesta: B -> B+:

Larvesta is a high risk high reward Pokemon, needing perfect hazard removal to function, losing to Stone Edge Mienfoo, and being trappable. It got more usage than anything in its rank by far which is why I nommed it up, and of the fighting type counters it uniquely has pivoting and hits extremely hard.

:carvanha: A- -> B+

Carvanha doesn't enjoy the rise of Morelull, and can also be prediction reliant to break. I'd imagine when paired with Poison Jab Mienfoo and/or running a Diglett set that isn't sash SpA it could be more consistent, but that hasn't happened yet. A good Pokemon, but doesn't have an elite team like it did last year.

:Grookey: A- -> B+:

Grookey has difficulties breaking on its own, and is also reliant on winning a speed tie vs opposing Natu to pose an endgame threat. Life Orb sets are better breakers, particularly with Wood Hammer, but lack the defensive utility that Eviolite sets have.

:onix: B- -> B:

Onix got a decent amount of usage, and is a good rocker with good defensive utility that can be a threatening DD mon with EQ + Head Smash coverage. Rock Blast sets are bad because they can't break Frillish or Morelull as easily.

:sandygast: C -> B:

Sandygast has proven to have a niche as a defensive rocker/ground type with recovery that can get past Natu with decent prediction. Its passive, but with spikes support and Koffing to make damage on Mienfoo stick its manageable.
 

Colin

formerly BeardedDrakon
is a Tiering Contributor
LCPL Champion
My team is out of LPL, so that means I can complain about the tier here w/o sabotaging my effort in that tournament. SS is in a bad state right now, with many games being mostly decided on match up, and many even match ups having speed ties or other 50/50's being a significant factor in who wins the game. The speed ties aren't as bad as they were in current gen in my opinion, but the mus have gotten more lopsided than they've ever been since the Magby ban in my opinion. Many Pokemon that were once good have been invalidated by Air Balloon Diglett, or simply don't fit well on teams anymore, which worsens the problem.

In my opinion, there are 3 particularly notable mu checks; they are:

:vulpix: - Sun is the most obvious mu check, as it has many auto win mus vs teams lacking enough fire resists and other counter play vs sun boosted Charmander/Ponyta. Sun might be broken, but more because it is restricting than that it is consistent. Diglett both helps and hurts this archetype, since it makes it much harder to position but also can invalidate Mareanie, provide secondary sun/rocks, and kill off other fire and rock types. If Diglett gets banned, Sun might break, but sun also loses an important support pick.

:abra: :porygon: - Life Orb Abra is usually broken into any team without a Diglett or Trapinch, and Porygon can counter trap many Diglett and Trapinch sets to enable other threats. Air Balloon or Shed Shell Diglett is amazing into these structures, but in my opinion its unhealthy to be forced to either run a specific pokemon or a very fast paced offense to avoid losing to Life Orb Abra. Abra can be prediction reliant, but it can often afford to run substitute to alleviate this. Mienfoo and the Pokemon it forces in are forced out by Abra, meaning it gets a lot of opportunity vs teams without Diglett.

:diglett: :air balloon: - Air Balloon/Shed Shell Diglett is a potential ban candidate to me. It limits Abra, which is good, but it also invalidates Pokemon such as Mareanie, Larvesta, and most electric types in addition to limiting or trapping even more. It being unable to be counter trapped usually means that these Pokemon become unviable or very inconsistent, since Shed Shell dig can not be limited to one kill/entry. Banning Diglett would be a drastic shift that would almost certainly result in more bans down the road, but considering the state of the tier almost no matter what gets used, I support this.

Another option would be to ban Mienfoo, since it is the most directly responsible for the tier's centralization through both its own usage and the counter play it forces. Each team is either HO, or has a dedicated switch in to Mienfoo, which Mienfoo often breaks with some support like hazards. I have few guesses on what the tier would look like without Mienfoo, but it is extremely restricting and the tier is extremely bad, so I support a ban. Many of the speed ties are because of Mienfoo too.

Hazard Stack is also an important mu check, but it can be outplayed more easily and has more ways to potentially beat it, so I consider it healthier.
 
:diglett: :air balloon: - Air Balloon/Shed Shell Diglett is a potential ban candidate to me. It limits Abra, which is good, but it also invalidates Pokemon such as Mareanie, Larvesta, and most electric types in addition to limiting or trapping even more. It being unable to be counter trapped usually means that these Pokemon become unviable or very inconsistent, since Shed Shell dig can not be limited to one kill/entry. Banning Diglett would be a drastic shift that would almost certainly result in more bans down the road, but considering the state of the tier almost no matter what gets used, I support this.
I agree with this, would even go as far as to say that Diglett makes Mienfoo more broken and that banning it would help with some issues such as speed ties. It doesn't just limit mons' usage but also how much they can do on a match, it almost feels like you're discouraged to use faster mons such as Abra/Ponyta to wallbreak or even just revenge kill because they don't get to do more than just picking a single KO before being trapped, without Diglett the offensive answers to Mienfoo would be more free and we could possibly even see Mareanie as another fighting resist grow in usage. Tho it does come with it's concerns i genuinely think that banning this mon is the best way to improve SS.
 
the VR really needs some changes so here is what i think reflects the lcwc meta best:

:diglett: S:
Diglett is undoubtedly the top 2 mon of the tier as it's the best speed control and revenge killer we have, it makes so much MUs better to handle and can trap a wide number of mons due to final gambit, also a solid SR setter.

:natu: A+:
Natu is the type of mon that you can add on any team and it will make it better, it's an incredible pivot, gives safety against spikestack and is quite versatile with sets, being able to run calm mind or life orb for extra firepower.

:frillish: A:
Frillish is an incredible wall that doesn't suffer from being too passive due to scald burn into hex being hard to switch into, it can break through it's own checks in the long run and is also very valuable against sun teams.

:pawniard: A:
Pawniard has to compete with ferroseed for the steel type slot on the team so they should be on the same rank, the scarf set is also very mediocre since it's very predict reliant and can easily lose momentum against mienfoo.

:abra: A-:
Abra needs to choose between having extra damage or being able to escape trapping which makes it awkward, counter trapping is not very reliable due to floating dig being everywhere but even then it's still the strongest mon in the meta and will be very good if you can fish for a team without diglett.

:morelull: B+:
Morelull is the second best fighting resist we currently have, it compresses fighting res and water res in the same slot and is very threatening to mienfoo with moonblast and effect spore, however it's very passive against ferro and has a notable weakness for tspikes or any poison coverage which can make it unreliable.

:archen: B+:
Archen is a solid scarfer that can force progress with knock + u-turn combo and has coverage to hit everything it needs, it can also run juice sets that have great wallbreak potential if given the opportunity, unfortunately defeatist + SR weakness limits a lot how much you can get out of it.

:sandygast: B+:
Sandygast has proved to be a solid SR setter and a wall that makes great defensive cores even outside of the usual hazard stack teams, however unlike frillish it's more passive and doesn't get many opportunities to fish for burns.

:tyrunt: B+:
Tyrunt doesn't like the rise of Morelull and Frillish/Sandygast but it's definitely still a solid sweeper that just needs someone to find a good team for it to start doing it's thing again.

:grookey: B:
Grookey has a hard time sweeping due to the limited turns it has + how much support it needs, it doesn't force much progress since it knocks the same mons that would be knocked by mienfoo (koffing and larv), has low defensive value for being a grass type that absolutely doesn't want to switch in on scalds and usually relies on speedties to break through natu.

:mareanie: B:
Mareanie is by far the most trappable fighting resist we have which makes it unreliable, however it's still a great mon that can make progress early by spamming knock off.

:timburr: B-:
There is 0 reasons to be running timburr outside of that one sun team rn, the 2 structures that would normally use it (fighting spam and larv teams) are mediocre, and in any other team you would much rather have mienfoo instead.

:trapinch: B-:
Hard to justify using trapinch over diglett, it still does it's job just fine but there aren't that many strong sweepers to abuse ferro/pory being removed so you usually don't get that many value out of it, not to mention fgambit dig can also trap ferro if needed while being much better overall.

:magnemite: B-:
Magnemite is nothing but a MU fish, scarf sets against dig teams need to win a 50/50 every single time and they also just can't break through ferro, the charge beam salac set can either insta win or be completely useless depending on wheter your opp has a ferro or not, overall a very unreliable mon.

:lileep: UR -> C:
Lileep is a niche SR setter that can absorb scalds from frillish and hits the same bulk as sandygast meaning it can also check the likes of natu and ponyta, however it's extremely passive with no way of punishing a mienfoo switch while also being weak to u-turn, it has a place in some tspikes teams but probably not something you would want to run often.

:foongus: C:
Foongus is simply outclassed by morelull, with lower defenses and no resist to knock it gets worn down very easily and really hates to face the common koffing + natu combination, the one niche it has is not having the tspikes weakness which could become relevant if more people start running that.

:pancham: UR:
i see no reason to run pancham at all, worse than the 2 other fighting types so it's only niche is on a fighting spam (which is already mediocre) and even then farfetch'd-galar is doing the same job, if not better.

:shellos: UR:
Shellos is simply outclassed by every single other defensive water type, no scald + hex combination, no spin + twave, no tp + future sight, the one niche it has is sticky hold but it's not enough when you're still being a passive mon that doesn't check anything the other water types don't, the cmn set is also very meme and needs a lot of support to not just insta lose against frillish.
 

Colin

formerly BeardedDrakon
is a Tiering Contributor
LCPL Champion
Teamdump:

https://pokepast.es/de6fddfb8e5f3a1d - a Morelull balance; its standard but is poor vs Toxic Spikes Koffing. You can use CM natu if you want here over U-turn. Used during LCWC w1.

https://pokepast.es/625c462f7e098730 - I cooked a bit too hard with this one, its very poor vs Onix and Tyrunt. Its neat offensively, but inconsistent. Used during LCWC w2.

https://pokepast.es/38b6d8964860fed7 - A Sandy Fat + Twave pawniard team, it is weak to Tspikes Koffing. its passive though. Used during LCWC w3

https://pokepast.es/ceff2309a118a420 - This team is flawed but decent. Scarf Archen is quite dangerous with hazards up but it needs hazards off itself which this team isn't amazing at ensuring. Mareanie knock is good but it can get trapped if not played carefully. Used during LCWC w4.

https://pokepast.es/c4d5ee79074b8d00 - Sun is extremely good and dangerous. Used during LCWC w5.

https://pokepast.es/e5f8bf202f62b269 - Dark Pulse Koffing is giga brain to make Sandygast a better mu, since Onix can't break through on its own. Scarf Pawniard isn't that good but because the Knock Off on Mienfoo is so high value it can pull its weight. You can put Twave on the scarf set if you want, but Beat Up and Sucker Punch are more generally useful than paralyzing Mienfoo. Used during LCWC playoffs stage 1.

https://pokepast.es/6792bfdfbde8c5d1 - Dark Pulse Koffing says hi again, but it has a 4mss on this team as it wants Thunderbolt and Fireblast and Tspike. This Diglett set is amazing, because it can use substitute on a Koffing and then ensure either rocks go up or Natu takes a Rock Slide. U-turn into Air Balloon Diglett also isn't a problem. The team is generally passive, which is a major problem, but spikes can pull a lot of weight if you can get past Natu. Used during LCWC semis

https://pokepast.es/37a435d5e64199e2 - I stole this team from the scout of my opponent but changed some stuff. I'm pretty sure Papillon also used this team. solid but prediction reliant, and weak to sun and Agility Porygon and Mareanie. Used during LCWC Semis Tiebreak. Fireblast Koffing over Wisp is also good here. Used during LCWC semis Tiebreak.

https://pokepast.es/ff68b1a8ef272f2a - By this point, I realized that Tspike Koffing was so dangerous that not bringing a grounded poison type was a bad plan, so I modified my LCWC semis team to make it more aggressive and called it a day. Air Balloon Diglett is a lot more threatening into this team though. Used during LCWC Finals.

This tier needs tiering action, with Diglett, Mienfoo, and Tspike Koffing its almost impossible to get creative without giving up terrible matchups.
 

Hacker

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
This tier in its current state is bad and we need some form of tiering action on it before LCPL.

What is wrong with SS LC?
This tier has a few issues but the main one that really stands out to me is the poison-type economy. Poisons as it stands right now are basically mandatory on every viable and consistent SS team thats ever been created recently. The recent trend of Toxic Spikes Koffing basically invalidates every bit of metagame progress we have made ever since banning Vullaby like variety of fight checks, etc. The way I see it we really have three (basically 2) options to choose from if we want to make this tier better.

Option 1) Banning Diglett
To me this option is pretty simple - if you ban Diglett every non-Koffing poison-type gets better. You would finally be able to use mons like Mareanie reliably without the fear of getting trapped by Diglett, and even be able to use more niche stuff like Trubbish to check Mienfoo. This basically turns Toxic Spikes Koffing into a matchup fish instead of invalidating every non-Koffing team structure people want to use.

"Regenerator cores will be broken." No they wont lol. In fact you get viable tools like Life Orb Abra being viable again and if we're learned anything from SV right now its that Alolan Diglett is a perfectly acceptable breaker when Diglett is banned

"Magnemite will be broken." Chinchou becomes viable, we still have more than servicable ground-types like Mudbray, Onix, and Drilbur. In fact the people I have seen saying this is the main testament of how warping Diglett is around the meta because you are almost always forced into it as your ground-type slot if you aren't matchup fishing lol

"Isn't stuff like Life Orb Abra too good?" Its still a coinflip mon on if it gets a kill or not. It was perfectly fine during current gen before floating Diglett became a more than common option. No idea on why it would be broken now. Trapinch also exists and can trap Arba/Mag etc

Trapping is also broken when unpunishable or the mons are actually viable. Personal taste on this one though

Option 2) Unbanning Vullaby
I'm not going over all of this lol but heres the last suspect thread. More than enough posts for you to understand both sides of the argument with this one. This solves the poison-type problem by giving us another fightcheck, also a mon immune to tspikes and that can defog, The mon is at best very overcentralizing but I think unbanning it is a decent option here and we already know we would be reverting to a better meta (subjective but eh)

Option 3) Banning Mienfoo
The need for a fightcheck immediately drops. Not gonna exactly pretend its a good option here because the meta would have to be reworked from the ground up but as if right now I do think Mienfoo is broken in this gen alongside Diglett lol.

my personal opinion on what we should do is Ban Diglett > Unban Vullaby > cry about meta being bad > Ban Mienfoo

tagging lcwc/lcpl/sspl starters that got at least two wins, and top 8 of sslc cup. interested in hearing people who have actually recently played this tiers opinions

Colin STarsAma GasaiYunoSan TheFranklin wesh papillon CMDoge JuanSG
Colin Scottie Stecolomaxx Laroxyl Chloe Collette Larry
Éric Hacker Laroxyl daunt vs Acehunter1 GasaiYunoSan Elfuseon
Éric kythr Scottie Kingler Kipkluif Stecolomaxx STarsAma Hubriz
 

Colin

formerly BeardedDrakon
is a Tiering Contributor
LCPL Champion
I have very low experience with Vullaby meta swsh LC, but from what I've heard it was decent, and it is a viable option to backtrack and ban the support that made Vullaby harder to deal with.

My real opinion is that Diglett needs to be banned, because of what Hacker said but also I think it interacts with Ferroseed and Koffing in addition to Mienfoo in unhealthy ways. that core 4 can invalidate all teams without an untrappable poison (koffing), unless they're so fast paced that they can win before tspike (mostly just sun). Ferroseed + Diglett forces either a Natu to prevent spikes, or specific breakers such as offensive non scarf Porygon and Heat Wave Archen that can break Ferroseed quickly and not get trapped afterwards. If Diglett didn't exist, it would be more feasible to run better breakers that could win before Spikes did, since they would be able to take more than 1 KO without being trapped. Diglett setting rocks is not ideal, but Eviolite and Air Balloon sets are okay at it and Shed Shell substitute is very good at it vs Koffing teams.

Banning Mienfoo would be a drastic change; I'm not opposed to it but I don't know what the meta would result in. Right now swsh LC is very bad and unfun, so this could be worthwhile.
 
This tier in its current state is bad and we need some form of tiering action on it before LCPL.

What is wrong with SS LC?
This tier has a few issues but the main one that really stands out to me is the poison-type economy. Poisons as it stands right now are basically mandatory on every viable and consistent SS team thats ever been created recently. The recent trend of Toxic Spikes Koffing basically invalidates every bit of metagame progress we have made ever since banning Vullaby like variety of fight checks, etc. The way I see it we really have three (basically 2) options to choose from if we want to make this tier better.

Option 1) Banning Diglett
To me this option is pretty simple - if you ban Diglett every non-Koffing poison-type gets better. You would finally be able to use mons like Mareanie reliably without the fear of getting trapped by Diglett, and even be able to use more niche stuff like Trubbish to check Mienfoo. This basically turns Toxic Spikes Koffing into a matchup fish instead of invalidating every non-Koffing team structure people want to use.

"Regenerator cores will be broken." No they wont lol. In fact you get viable tools like Life Orb Abra being viable again and if we're learned anything from SV right now its that Alolan Diglett is a perfectly acceptable breaker when Diglett is banned

"Magnemite will be broken." Chinchou becomes viable, we still have more than servicable ground-types like Mudbray, Onix, and Drilbur. In fact the people I have seen saying this is the main testament of how warping Diglett is around the meta because you are almost always forced into it as your ground-type slot if you aren't matchup fishing lol

"Isn't stuff like Life Orb Abra too good?" Its still a coinflip mon on if it gets a kill or not. It was perfectly fine during current gen before floating Diglett became a more than common option. No idea on why it would be broken now. Trapinch also exists and can trap Arba/Mag etc

Trapping is also broken when unpunishable or the mons are actually viable. Personal taste on this one though

Option 2) Unbanning Vullaby
I'm not going over all of this lol but heres the last suspect thread. More than enough posts for you to understand both sides of the argument with this one. This solves the poison-type problem by giving us another fightcheck, also a mon immune to tspikes and that can defog, The mon is at best very overcentralizing but I think unbanning it is a decent option here and we already know we would be reverting to a better meta (subjective but eh)

Option 3) Banning Mienfoo
The need for a fightcheck immediately drops. Not gonna exactly pretend its a good option here because the meta would have to be reworked from the ground up but as if right now I do think Mienfoo is broken in this gen alongside Diglett lol.

my personal opinion on what we should do is Ban Diglett > Unban Vullaby > cry about meta being bad > Ban Mienfoo

tagging lcwc/lcpl/sspl starters that got at least two wins, and top 8 of sslc cup. interested in hearing people who have actually recently played this tiers opinions

Colin STarsAma GasaiYunoSan TheFranklin wesh papillon CMDoge JuanSG
Colin Scottie Stecolomaxx Laroxyl Chloe Collette Larry
Éric Hacker Laroxyl daunt vs Acehunter1 GasaiYunoSan Elfuseon
Éric kythr Scottie Kingler Kipkluif Stecolomaxx STarsAma Hubriz
No to all of these sorry. There was some point where I wouldve been down with a dig ban but I am personally opposed to doing anything in the tier regardless of staleness or whatever.
 

Éric

mons is mons
is a Pre-Contributor
to me, the two only realistic choices id like are these:
1. ban diglett: pretty straightforward. i agree with the sentiment that dig traps too much too easily for too little punishment. it invalidates every single fighting resist AND every good breaker. most teams use it and cant actually punish it for trapping their key mons.
2. unban vullaby AND ban porygon. two main reasons. first being that reverting 4 years of metagame development to something we already disliked is terrible, so at least wed get something new. second is that most of the ppl playing the meta 4 years ago when this happened already wanted porygon to be banned if vullaby stayed. clearly both of them at the same time were too much for the tier to handle, and if we are to unban one, we need to ban the other.
the non realistic change id love to see is unbanning gothita. i dont really see how is it any broken when diglett exists. it traps less stuff than it and is way more easily punishable. if we dont wanna ban stuff i think this should be the move, but i think im alone in this somehow

for the record, please i hope whoever says "but theres no time for a mienfoo ban" or whatever gets their post removed. thats the most stupid opinion ever. everyone dislikes this tier, a rework needs to be done, and the time argument is stupid when we have seen metas develop post current gen like bw or adv lc.
 

LilyAC

encore encore encore
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
What is wrong with SS LC?
This tier has a few issues but the main one that really stands out to me is the poison-type economy. Poisons as it stands right now are basically mandatory on every viable and consistent SS team thats ever been created recently. The recent trend of Toxic Spikes Koffing basically invalidates every bit of metagame progress we have made ever since banning Vullaby like variety of fight checks, etc. The way I see it we really have three (basically 2) options to choose from if we want to make this tier better.
When you say poison-types, I assume this boils down to Koffing and Mareanie. First of all I don't think they are mandatory. Although they're probably the top 2 fight resists, there's plenty of examples of people using Morelull and Larv with success.

Toxic Spikes are great at targeting Morelull/Larv/cheese teams, but definitely not to the degree that it invalidates them. There's reasons this move has always seen limited usage. It's far from a free slot on Koffing - if you drop any one of its slots you're going to be missing out on something fairly important, and tspikes is completely useless if you're against another poison-type, which as you say, is extremely likely. This is just another move that's a decent matchup fish against some opponents - not something you should be using on over half your Koffings, and not something that's metagame defining enough to be used as a primary ban argument.

The same kind of tspikes dynamic has existed in SM since forever and has never been enough to invalidate poisonless teams. Of course that's a different metagame with different context but it's unlikely to be any different here in SS, and all the evidence points to that. If people actually become too scared to bring poisonless teams, and stop winning with them often, then we can talk about it.

I actually think Koffing has gotten marginally worse than it used to be a while back because people stack checks more often. There's some teams where opposing Koffing can't click a move without the possibility of making near-zero progress (which is why Thief is better now btw).

So no I don't think this is the issue with SS, and even if it was, banning Diglett wouldn't be my conclusion.


My real opinion is that Diglett needs to be banned, because of what Hacker said but also I think it interacts with Ferroseed and Koffing in addition to Mienfoo in unhealthy ways. that core 4 can invalidate all teams without an untrappable poison (koffing), unless they're so fast paced that they can win before tspike (mostly just sun). Ferroseed + Diglett forces either a Natu to prevent spikes, or specific breakers such as offensive non scarf Porygon and Heat Wave Archen that can break Ferroseed quickly and not get trapped afterwards. If Diglett didn't exist, it would be more feasible to run better breakers that could win before Spikes did, since they would be able to take more than 1 KO without being trapped. Diglett setting rocks is not ideal, but Eviolite and Air Balloon sets are okay at it and Shed Shell substitute is very good at it vs Koffing teams.
I'm really anti-Diglett ban, so I feel like I need to address this argument, but it's kind of unclear.
You've provided a standard team structure (Foo / Dig / Ferro / Koffing), stated that it naturally invalidates anything that doesn't have Koffing (false), then provided some interesting counters to it. Just because you have a trappable fight resist doesn't mean you autolose to Diglett. It's just a slightly negative matchup, and with the right combination of other mons on the team, it can actually become a positive one. The team structure you mentioned is just another solid core, not an unstoppable force that's invalidating everything else, otherwise we'd see it more often by now, given it's a fully known quantity.


To be clear though, Koffing is really good and maybe even belongs on the majority of teams. It's just not mandatory, and it's not the core issue to tackle with SS.
If your goal is to diversify the fight resists, we're going end up with more Morelull and Larvestas, which a) are annoying to play against due to status and b) will create more cringe interactions where people fish with Stone Edge / Poison Jab Foo.


So what do I think is wrong with SS LC?

It's the same answer I've been giving for a long time - the games just have less depth. Important 50/50s feel more common than usual, and it's harder to make creative midground plays. This is kinda just a vibe, and Vullaby is what fixes it, from experience.

However, I think SS has gotten a fair bit better than when I last advocated for freeing Vullaby. Developments have been made and speed ties are more avoidable.
I'd still prefer an unban, but I'm okay with SS staying as it is.

(please please don't ban diglett)
 

Colin

formerly BeardedDrakon
is a Tiering Contributor
LCPL Champion
When you say poison-types, I assume this boils down to Koffing and Mareanie. First of all I don't think they are mandatory. Although they're probably the top 2 fight resists, there's plenty of examples of people using Morelull and Larv with success.

Toxic Spikes are great at targeting Morelull/Larv/cheese teams, but definitely not to the degree that it invalidates them. There's reasons this move has always seen limited usage. It's far from a free slot on Koffing - if you drop any one of its slots you're going to be missing out on something fairly important, and tspikes is completely useless if you're against another poison-type, which as you say, is extremely likely. This is just another move that's a decent matchup fish against some opponents - not something you should be using on over half your Koffings, and not something that's metagame defining enough to be used as a primary ban argument.

The same kind of tspikes dynamic has existed in SM since forever and has never been enough to invalidate poisonless teams. Of course that's a different metagame with different context but it's unlikely to be any different here in SS, and all the evidence points to that. If people actually become too scared to bring poisonless teams, and stop winning with them often, then we can talk about it.

I actually think Koffing has gotten marginally worse than it used to be a while back because people stack checks more often. There's some teams where opposing Koffing can't click a move without the possibility of making near-zero progress (which is why Thief is better now btw).

So no I don't think this is the issue with SS, and even if it was, banning Diglett wouldn't be my conclusion.




I'm really anti-Diglett ban, so I feel like I need to address this argument, but it's kind of unclear.
You've provided a standard team structure (Foo / Dig / Ferro / Koffing), stated that it naturally invalidates anything that doesn't have Koffing (false), then provided some interesting counters to it. Just because you have a trappable fight resist doesn't mean you autolose to Diglett. It's just a slightly negative matchup, and with the right combination of other mons on the team, it can actually become a positive one. The team structure you mentioned is just another solid core, not an unstoppable force that's invalidating everything else, otherwise we'd see it more often by now, given it's a fully known quantity.


To be clear though, Koffing is really good and maybe even belongs on the majority of teams. It's just not mandatory, and it's not the core issue to tackle with SS.
If your goal is to diversify the fight resists, we're going end up with more Morelull and Larvestas, which a) are annoying to play against due to status and b) will create more cringe interactions where people fish with Stone Edge / Poison Jab Foo.


So what do I think is wrong with SS LC?

It's the same answer I've been giving for a long time - the games just have less depth. Important 50/50s feel more common than usual, and it's harder to make creative midground plays. This is kinda just a vibe, and Vullaby is what fixes it, from experience.

However, I think SS has gotten a fair bit better than when I last advocated for freeing Vullaby. Developments have been made and speed ties are more avoidable.
I'd still prefer an unban, but I'm okay with SS staying as it is.

(please please don't ban diglett)
I did not play SS cup, but I can confidently say that by the end of LCWC, it was very difficult to build a worthwhile team without a grounded poison, and that Mareanie is inconsistent with Diglett and potential Tbolt Koffing. I'll use the LCWC replays and teams as examples for my point, and how the price of trying and failing isn't just a bad matchup, but often an unwinnable matchup into many common team structures.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8lc-751329 - LCWC finals - In fairness, this Larvesta team is very dated and was bad as soon as Magnemite and LO Abra teams existed. Here, I set toxic spikes turn 1 and nearly just win immediately because they can't remove them and they're a bulky balance team. CM Natu has some winning chances, but I luck it early on so its not a major threat if Diglett Rock Slide cooperates. After this, if I hit Rock Slides they have a very difficult time getting back into the game. Most Larvesta teams play a much faster pace, but even so Toxic Spikes are usually a very bad mu. Toxic Spikes probably wouldn't be as practical if Diglett didn't exist, because even without trapping it is easier to build teams that could outpace it, and grounded poison types get better probably.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8lc-747630 - LCWC semis - This game is the biggest counterargument to my opinion, because Starsama loaded no grounded poison and I would've been in a worse position if I did load Toxic Spikes on my Koffing, unless I decide to take a major risk and send Ferro into the Archen. In this case, their Morelull offense is well built and with Archen it can make major progress and their team can win before standard Spikes balances and Tspike Koffing do. There is a caveat though; Berry Juice Archen is very inconsistent. It sits in the crowded 17 speed tier, and is KOed by Mienfoo and Natu after Stealth Rock. It also has a 4mss, because it needs Heat Wave to immediately threaten Ferroseed but without EQ it gets walled by Onix. It does beat Diglett though, and other breakers such as Ponyta and Abra became very uncommon towards the end of the tournament because they don't, even when they are otherwise consistent at their job if you play well.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8lc-749629 - LCWC semis tiebreak - This is just a weird game with weird teams, but I will freely admit that Tspike Koffing here just makes the Morelull mu mostly even instead of free, because I stack so many Pokemon weak to it. More often, when tspike Koffing is loaded it tends to have a mu spread closer to 80-20 vs Morelull balance, and potentially that good vs Morelull offense though it could sometimes just not be good. Week 1 of playoffs was a turn 1 lucky Porygon sweep for me, but I felt forced to use either Koffing or Mareanie because of a large amount of Tspikes on the scout.

https://pokepast.es/868bcd8da63f5e45 - This, but with CM natu is what I used week 1 of LCWC, and was one of the most popular teams throughout the early and middle parts of the tournament. It is no longer viable because of most Tspike Koffing teams having an oppressive matchup into it.

https://pokepast.es/26d81ce127c71e17 - I used this week 3 of LCWC, and it fares even worse into Tspikes Koffing.

except for 1 team which is just okay but not good, literally my entire LCPL builder loses to either Tspikes Koffing + Balloon Diglett, or Spikes. My LPL 11 builder fares better but not well. My point with this is that people have learned how to make Tspikes Koffing really good, and that wouldn't be possible except for Diglett invalidating a large majority of consistent breakers that threaten these teams otherwise. Morelull fat used to be very consistent, but no longer is, and Larvesta now has 1 more really annoying thing to deal with (it has a lot). I don't consider SWSH a playable metagame anymore, and so I won't be playing it until tiering action is or will potentially be done soon. I sincerely advise whoever hosts LCPL to put ADV LC there instead, because it has a larger willing playerbase
 

Elfuseon

is a Top Tiering Contributor
RUPL Champion
My opinion will be very simple. I do think the meta is shit rn but it has been since vullaby was banned.

Yes there were some slight changes in trends like carv at the beginning, then larv/morelull being fishy options -- thanks Acehunter1 and wesh papillon fellow Quebecers for that lol -- and more recently tspikes koffing, but this is how poeple adapt to a metagame in tournaments and thats normal.

A meta will never be 100% dead and solved but you can see how its looking-like dead and unenjoyable when poeple just dont want to be starter in some tours. Trust me ive saw many poeple arguing against each other to not play it cuz they would lose the chance to play another gen more fun.

So what i suggest then?

I said meta stinks since vullaby is gone, ofc bringing it back is a viable option to me and i voted no ban the two times it was suspected. Is it a majority opinion? Probably not since it was banned at some point. I do think though that a meta should be what the ACTUAL playerbase want it to looks like. What im telling is that a majority of peak SS playerbase are not even there anymore playing this gen or playing mons at all and thats something we should point out when we discuss about those subjects.

I remember when i first came on this site (and im surely not the only one), i was attracted by the current gen ofc. Why? Cuz it was in constant evolution and it was letting me try stuff without being crushed by the same 8-10 mons on the ladder over and over again. I understand the point that some poeple could bring telling that a past gen should be stable and very few changes should occur, but i really dislike this opinion when the majority of poeple that are playing it are not even agreeing/enjoying it. I dont know if this situation is also happening in other meta/gen but i wouldnt be surprised if it is the case. We can see for exemple recently that Volcarona and Cloyster are being suspected/ban in BW OU proving that it isnt always closed heaven once gen is passed.

We ofc need to place some checkpoints cuz we dont want every lc discord mainer to cry every month to change meta, but i do think that a survey/suspect happening every year (or choose the frequency you think it suits the purpose) is a good strategy to keep poeple involved in metagame and interested in it. Also helps new players to discover oldgens. How do you do it? Ofc asking top tournaments players and starters in PL like Hacker did, but just doing some forum tours could be fun for testing potential ban/unban.

Unbanning more then banning?

Yes banning some broken stuff is mecessary, but what if one thing was broken because of a second one and this second thing isnt there anymore? Well what if we unban this first thing to see if it can be a good addition in the current metagame?

My first example and something ive heard talking about over and over again in the past was cutiefly. Cutiefly was definitely a strong pokemon and possibly broken as well since it was banned. But what if we unban it since the main reason of its ban isnt there anymore, webs. Or we can unban it and restrain it from having access to the second reason why it was broken, quiver dance. You gain a viable and non fishy fight check while not being trappable by diglett (unless LO dig, but this set is easier to deal with since counter trappable). You have some very decent checks to it in ferroseed, larv, ponyta and others i prob forget.

Second example is Gastly. I doubt this option will ever appear to be reality but if we think dig or mienfoo are broken, then having an immunity to both problems STAB is quite nice. Also solving a part of the 17 speed tie land problem. Gastly cant easily pass pawniard now without Hidden power and has always been pretty frail. Also could bring back some other mons to life like stunky as we saw in SV.

Third option is very up to you. What i mean is that we should always do some experimentations. That allows discussions, team test, brainstorming, etc. Thats what a healthy meta needs in my mind. When i see threads of oldgen tiers not having a single post in months is very desolating.

Im not a tier leader or part of the council and my opinion is not worth more than anyone else but i think that these are some paths we could explore if we want to vitalize again the SS meta and other gens as well.
 
I think dig should stay in ss lc.
Main reason is abra. Without diglett, Abra will be more broken. People will start using again life orb and it will be harder to counter than before. How can you stop life orb abra? I’ve just watched again the list of mons and they are all 2ohkoed by it. I also think dig isn’t broken at all. A dig ban could help letting poison mons freely and so reduce tspikes problem but at the same time it will create controversial issues that imo will be more important to avoid.

I support unban vulla.
I played with and without it and I can say vulla meta was more balanced. I think with vullaby you could fix all problems that current meta has (tspike, having another fight resist which means you can keep your poison alive without risking it on diglett).
It could also reduce natu’s usages which is really helpful imo.
Abra became a coin flip mon because we banned vulla. It was manageable in vulla meta (building was also not as restricted as it is now).

Ban foo has no sense for me, that mon isn’t broken and shouldn’t be banned.

Vulla fixes all issues you have put in this topic.
 
Last edited:

TheFranklin

is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
RUPL Champion
No to all of these sorry. There was some point where I wouldve been down with a dig ban but I am personally opposed to doing anything in the tier regardless of staleness or whatever.
Agree with this, tiering action after its current gen is lame and should be reduced to the minimum.

Also agree with LilyAC regarding what the real problem is why most people dont enjoy the tier.
I'm very much in favor of no tiering action at all.
 
Well i also think that we need dig in SS and even if i understand the idea of banning him, i still think it's not the solution. And ban mienfoo is probably the worst change possible on the meta rn so i hope nobody think about it seriously.
The best choice is to unban vulla and maybe gastly (sorry but cutiefly is too broken to be freed), we've seen that gastly was strong with tera but without and with pawn and porygon, i guess there is a way that we can play him. And the main idea here is for vullaby, the bird has been the target for too many time in a metagame where trapinch was the real problem cause he could trap pawn and onix on every vulla turn.
Anyway we need to test an unban soon cause yes, the metagame is not at his best and vulla (or another mon) can change that.
 

Kipkluif

Liever Kips leverworst
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
LCPL Champion
I guess we're threadposting after all. Originally didn't because my takes are mostly already worded better by others and a bunch of it is just, like, my opinion, man. I like current SS, think it's been aging very well and would not at all mind no action. I do not recognise the meta where poisons are mandatory and tspikes koffing is the overcentralizing thing that invalidates most structures. I don't think diglett ban is at all advisable, I don't think it's broken, could see overcentralizing, but all in all think we end up in a worse meta if we do so, where pivot cores run wild and good positioning is less rewarding (I do not like making this point, as it is pure speculation, and I don't really believe we can reliably do that, but since its postgen we sort of have to since theres no way this meta doesnt go into standstill after lcpl when theres no incentive to play it). I wouldn't mind to see vullaby retried, when it was back on ladder for the last retest I enjoyed that meta, aside from nasty plot vull, which is a little bitch and I don't miss her. If you want to ban mienfoo, we don't play the same game. I dont see a reason to free anything else on the banlist either.
 

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