Resource National Dex Ubers Viability Rankings [Update #5 at post 188!]

[Bobsican]

Okay, as some may be aware a mini slate (exact votation details here) was done for some more niche choices that were brought up a bit too recently here or in the Discord server to be properly evaluated, so here's some new additions:

Basculegion: UR -> B-
Venusaur-Mega: UR -> C
Latios-Mega: UR -> C
Chien-Pao: D -> C+
Iron Treads: UR -> C

So here's some basic explanations:

: Last Respects is stupid, who would've thought? But unlike vanilla Ubers this mon struggles more as for one it can't just OHKO defensive variants of even as the last Pokemon left, really dislikes 's Shadow Sneak, and Swift Swim strategies are dead with primal weather from and removing it by coming in and out, so overall in practice it's a rather cheesy Pokemon as it's limited to the Agility set, it could possibly use more exploration, however.

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 248 HP / 68+ Def Groudon-Primal: 340-400 (84.3 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is a quite funny calculation.

: Easily the sturdiest answer to in the metagame, Thick Fat and Synthesis healing more while under sun means that it can be used as a soft check to Primal Groudon with Leech Seed too, the lack of utility moves compared to is mainly what prevents it from rising higher, but it overall has its niche.

: Thanks to Zrp200 it has been found out that this Pokemon does weird role compression between pivoting in Flip Turn and more notably Future Sight and Draco Meteor to avoid passivity compared to , however, that's where the niche ends as it's a bit too slow for the metagame, and faces heavy competition with .

: Spammable STABs, rather fast, etc. One would think it'd have deserved to be ranked higher, but besides being hard-checked by , it needs to Terastallize to apply immediately offensive pressure, having no defensive utility whatsoever or Knock Off also does no favors.

: Basically a slightly better , it loses on the leads (which is the sole reason wasn't sent to UR), but Booster Energy gives it a really high speed tier without a choice lock to ensure Stealth Rock, this complemented with Rapid Spin to annoy other leads, and higher overall bulk let it do its job as a suicide lead better.

 

[cfdu1202]

I am more or less satisfied with the rankings so far. Here's mine:

S+
I feel like PDon got worse. Not that it doesn't deserve its S+ rank, but offensive sets are getting roadblocked by Giratina-O, and PDon doesn't have anything that hugely threaten it worth using over its other moves. Defensive sets are as good as ever.

S
Remains an excellent Pokemon, though I thought that support Arceus would drop Taunt for other moves, which would have been even nicer for Zygarde. Offensive sets are quite good in this metagame, though I'm not a huge fan of LO, as Zygarde's bulk comes from its gargantuan HP.
Never ever deadweight, and its base 130 Speed is helpful as ever. Offensive or Support sets are all excellent. Providing an emergency switch-in to POgre is also welcomed.

S-
Nothing has changed for Arceus-Ground, and the metagame is still lacking switch-ins to SD Groundium-Z sets, especially those with Taunt. Pair this with offensive PDon and you can weaken Giratina-O for the other to sweep.
I don't understand why people want to drop this, if anything Zacian-C is thriving in this metagame. Having plenty of switch-in opportunities, Ho-Oh becoming rarer, with entry hazards you essentially need two hits on the opposing PDon before wreaking things, even less if you are running Tera Blast Ground.
I'm not sold on Ho-Oh being S- rank. Brave Bird is close to mandatory now, otherwise offensive PDon, POgre, Eternatus to name a few can switch in with near impunity. Haven't tried CB variants, though they might be legit as those that I encountered were quite hard to maneuver around.

A+
S ranks should be for metagame-defining threats, and I don't think Yveltal is there yet. It can struggle against more offensive teams, and the resurgence of Arceus-Fairy doesn't help either. LO variants also have what I call the Marsh- syndrome (of course to a lesser extent), either KO or be KO'd as you need all the offensive EVs you can get. This is particularly apparent against POgre, Fire move PDon and Ho-Oh if lacking Knock Off. It is still an amazing Pokemon though.
Not S for me. Its slow speed is a problem, but at the same time, it can soft check a lot of things and a headache to switch into without PDon. A+ is approppriate.
I wanted to put this in A and there's definitely a distance between the aforementioned two. Still, it does its usual job.

A
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.


I still think Ultra-Necrozma is above Arceus and MegaMence above NDM. Ultra-Necrozma is the most prominent breaker in the metagame, especially if you lack Arceus-Dark. I can agree with Mega Salamence's drop as it doesn't abuse Ho-Oh anymore due to the latter's drop in usage. What I don't agree with is Arceus-Fairy and Giratina-O, they both deserve the A ranking. Giratina-O in particular can raise a few subranks. They are all better than the rest of the A- rank and I consider them core of the metagame. Their defensive and offensive profiles suit a lot of different styles and they are fairly customizable too.

That's all for the detailed thoughts, due to the lack of time. However, I think Gothitelle is worth B+ at least, it can be of incredible value albeit quite inconsistent. Alolomola is not B+, even B is stretching it. A well-built team blows through it and the archetypes it finds itself on rather easily if you keep the tempo of the game, meaning it only gets the opportunity to pass Wishes when given a free switch. Magearna can go down to C+ (and the voting slate is wrong it should be B-), if B- is stall's ranking then Dondozo should probably go there. Lando-T can go up to B-, having used it quite extensively I can say it is legit on offensive teams needing the slow U-Turn while being one of the best initial PDon switch-in (watch out for Overheat), pairing well with the likes of CB Marshadow or Deoxys-A, and chipping Zacians, Extremekillers with Rocky Helmet. Drop Buzzwole as it does nothing against the current metagame. Drop Mega Sableye, Arceus-Steel, Arceus-Rock, Gholdengo and Landorus-I by one subrank, they are not worth using. Happy about Basculegion and Mega Venusaur. C+ for Chien Pao seems high as Zacian, Tera Zygarde, Arceus-Fairy are all strong answers to it. Last but not least, I've already tried a long time ago to play with Iron Treads, and it can give good value to your team. However, I feel like Focus Sash Endeavor is better than Booster Energy. It's better than C and could go to C+ honestly.

 

[probablytaken]

: B- -> B+

has insanely powerful edgequake coverage with amazing offensive stats, great bulk, and good speed. It has one of the best rock moves in the game in diamond storm, good coverage in mystical fire, and can set up either spikes or rocks. It also has one of the best abilities in the game in magic bounce. It shouldn't be in a lower tier than a mostly outclassed screen setter (Grimmsnarl).

Feel free to disagree.

 

[Bobsican]

View attachment 627592: B- -> B+

View attachment 627594 has insanely powerful edgequake coverage with amazing offensive stats, great bulk, and good speed. It has one of the best rock moves in the game in diamond storm, good coverage in mystical fire, and can set up either spikes or rocks. It also has one of the best abilities in the game in magic bounce. It shouldn't be in a lower tier than a mostly outclassed screen setter (Grimmsnarl).

Feel free to disagree.

This is mere dex information, a good nomination for another rank explains how its traits are overall better or worse at dealing with the current metagame.

 

[BananaTimeZ]

View attachment 627592: B- -> B+

View attachment 627594 has insanely powerful edgequake coverage with amazing offensive stats, great bulk, and good speed. It has one of the best rock moves in the game in diamond storm, good coverage in mystical fire, and can set up either spikes or rocks. It also has one of the best abilities in the game in magic bounce. It shouldn't be in a lower tier than a mostly outclassed screen setter (Grimmsnarl).

Feel free to disagree.

While magic bounce is a very nice trait to have in ndubers especially since mdia has spikis, mdia is still very frail and oftentimes you dont want your hazardblocker to be oneshot by the primal groudon. I do agree that diamond storm+earth power is a deadly combo but from experience it oftentimes doesnt have the offenses or the defenses to utilize it to the max

 

[bumboclaat]

View attachment 627592: B- -> B+

View attachment 627594 has insanely powerful edgequake coverage with amazing offensive stats, great bulk, and good speed. It has one of the best rock moves in the game in diamond storm, good coverage in mystical fire, and can set up either spikes or rocks. It also has one of the best abilities in the game in magic bounce. It shouldn't be in a lower tier than a mostly outclassed screen setter (Grimmsnarl).

Feel free to disagree.

B- is fine for the moment imo. Fwiw agree with you that it shouldn't be lower than Grimm, but I also think Grimm is a C/C+ mon. The issue with Mega Diancie is that it only really fits on some types of HO and mainly as a suicide lead. Its movepool is good and it is annoying to switch into, but in turn Diancie can't really switch into much of anything itself and requires that turn to mega. If it has it is so frail that even mons it struggles to switch into mons it should on paper such as Yveltal and Ho-Oh. They do enough damage that Diancie can't switch in repeatedly and furthermore it really does not want to risk a burn. It also has the issue of competing for the mega slot. On most teamstyles this isn't an issue, but HO does frequently like to use Mence which it can't if Diancie is used.

I could see Diancie potentially being B in the future if the types of HO teams it fits on rise to the front of the meta. That is the ceiling though as it is limited to specific flavours of HO. When I look at B- Diancie really feels like a C+ mon. Really the only mon I'd say Diancie is better than is Basculegion which I view as a C/C+ mon. You have the stall mons, alternate HO leads (Glimm should be B and Dozo should be B- imo), and Pheromosa which I do not have enough experience using or facing to confidently comment on. When I look at the mons in B+/B they are all significantly more viable than Diancie with the exception of Magearna, which I have no idea how it retained a B rank.

 

[cfdu1202]

with the exception of Magearna, which I have no idea how it retained a B rank.

Because, as I mentioned in my previous post but I think the mods read past it, the ranking for Magearna is wrong, it should be B-. But please drop this to C+.

I don't have a strong opinion for Diancie. I will say that it's a very good SR setter as it beats most common defoggers, and if you build around its strengths, you can be decently rewarded. However, you pointed out some valid issues, especially regarding the nega slot on HO. For me B- is appropriate enough.

I really think a rise for Landorus-T is warranted, to B-. Intimidate is huge vs SD Arceus-Ground and Zacian-C. PDon does hit you hard with Overheat and even 252+ Heat Crash 2HKO through Intimidate, but switching on those threats and the slow U-Turn is huge in a metagame lacking the latter. It can also Defog in case of emergency.

R8 edit: fixed magearna's rank, ty!

 

[Anchor9]

UR -> C

I was made aware of this Mon recently, and it has the tools to fill a niche for stall like no other, possibly enough to warrant taking the Mega Slot from Sableye in certain scenarios.

Thanks to Sand Stream, it gets a very strong SPDef with its already monster sized Def. This completely walls a notorious stall breaker in Specially Offensive Yveltal thanks to its Dark / Rock Typing and inability to be Knocked Off. Mega Tyranitar also greatly threatens Yveltal with Stone Edge. This already allows it to do something Mega Sableye cannot, as Oblivion Wing slowly wears Sableye down. Knock Off allows it to neutralize dangerous wallbreakers such as Choice Spec Eternatus and Choice Band Marshadow and pretty much kill Ho-Oh with Stealth Rock down. Earthquake does tons of damage to Eternatus. With Pursuit it can punish a Band Marshadow locked into the wrong move or an unlucky Giratina-O. Access to Stealth Rock allows it be a rock setter that is extremely hard to Defog on. With Taunt + some Speed investment, it can keep Zygarde, Ho-Oh and Giratina-O from using any utility moves, making the fact it can Pursuit trap Giratina-O all the more deadly. Roar can waste Meteor Beam from Eternatus and keep Arceus without Taunt from setting up.

Mega Tyranitar is not without flaws however, as Taunt Arceus-Ground easily sets up on it, which Sableye would beat with Prankster Will-O-Wisp. Mega Tyranitar also loses to Life Orb Marshadow and Deoxys-A, which Mega Sableye also beats. It is also especially prone to status and slowly being worn down, meaning Toxic Spikes from Eternatus makes switct also cannot do all that is mentioned at once due to only four move slots, meaning that Marshadow can easily wear down non-Pursuit, Giratina-O can Toxic non-Taunt to death, and Meteor Beam Eternatus can beat it over time after Power Herb is consumed if it’s not Earthquake.

Here’s a replay from the NatDex Uber Trio Tour that brought this to my attention:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2112739086

In this battle Mega Tyranitar is able to consistently force out Yveltal and disrupts the entire team with Stealth Rock, especially Yveltal. Yveltal would easily have ran over this team if Mega Tyranitar was not here or even replaced by Mega Sableye, as Ho-Oh and Chansey would have been Knocked out of commission, while Dondonzo and Giratina also feared Knock Off and would have taken loads from Dark Pulse, which this Yveltal most likely had. Mewtwo would just be…. dead, unless it was Tera Fairy Tera Blast.

Just some thoughts!

Calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 65-77 (17.3 - 20.5%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Yveltal Oblivion Wing vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 49-58 (13.1 - 15.5%) -- possible 7HKO

252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 446-528 (113.4 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Eternatus Meteor Beam vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 121-143 (32.3 - 38.2%) -- 97.1% chance to 3HKO

+1 252 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 153-180 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 298-352 (70.7 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 20 Def Giratina-Origin: 336-396 (66.7 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega switching boosted Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marshadow: 204-241 (63.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

 

[bumboclaat]

With Seasonals in the rear view mirror and Trios wrapping up soon now seems to be a decent time to make some nominations. These are the first tournament games we've had since NDFL wrapped up in early January and more importantly since the Xerneas ban. I don't know when the next VR slate is going to be, but I'm really don't feel like putting effort into a VR post and having some huge shakeup happen for the third straight time so I'm posting this now. If anything happens in the last 3 games of Trios I'll edit it in.

Noms

Rises

| S-[4] -> S-[1 or 2] | If this was a personal VR Yveltal would be S[3]. My truly hot take is that it is barely worse if not on par with Eternatus. Though everyone expected Yveltal to get better with Xerneas leaving, it is signficantly better than I was expecting. Life Orb sets are the most consistent breaker in the tier. The only actual good defensive switchin is Arceus Fairy or Mega Tyranitar if you're running stall. Defensive Primal Kyogre trades and bulky Eternatus sets can check it, but rather inconsistently as it is going to have to get the toxic/ recover v taunt coinflip right if it is switching in. Even Zac-C, the only good offensive switchin is dangerously close to CB Ghost Shadow Sneak range if it switches in on Dark Pulse. Sucker Punch also exists and is very good.

Defensive sets have also been flourishing recently. They were usable before, but were incredibly limiting to build with, especially if it wanted to run Defog. Kind of shocking that not having to find ways to deal with both Xerneas and Zacian-C while also having to burn tera to consistently answer Ultra Necrozma leads to more consistency. Scarf sets are also great though a step down from the other two. Honourable mention to being one of the best answers to the currently trendy Psyspam. Yveltal is a mon that should be at least considered for every non-stall team currently during the building process. It won't make it onto every team, but it can slot well into most of them.

| A[2] -> A+[3] | Pretty much the same nomination from 2 months ago. CB is a nutty breaker and revenge killer that does live some hits, notably defensive Primal Groudon Precipice Blades and uninvested Dynamax Cannon. Bulk Up sets are also very good, but are quite difficult to pilot at times. I really don't like AoA at all. It is a bad combination of CB and BU sets. It lacks the breaking power of CB while still chipping itself down w LO and is nowhere near as scary a cleaner as BU. Just use BU, checking Zygarde and Ho-Oh is not that hard.

| A-[1] -> A [1 or 2] | A little bit after Koraidon was banned I thought Arceus-Fairy was B+ material. My opinion has changed to say the least. Arceus-Fairy was better than I gave it credit for then but is amazing now. Being a defensive Fairy is amazing, especially with Yveltal currently being a bit silly. Arceus-Fairy is also the only Arceus forme I've ran rocks on because I actually liked it as a rocker. A [2] is fine as well. If you're higher on HO than I am Ekiller should be better. Ekiller is still great as always, but Arceus Fairy is just amazing defensively at the moment. I can't remember if it made it into the analysis, but tera Dark is great on it. Arceus-Fairy rarely teras anyways and having a discount Arceus-Dark in your back pocket to deal with a lot of the same pokes (Ultra Necrozma mostly but also + Mega Salamence) is great and the rise of Psyspam is just another benefit. I'm still lukewarm when it comes to offensive sets without Gothitelle support.

| A-[2] -> A [5] | I'm not 100% sure where Giratina-O should be other than in the A. Giratina-O, and BO by extension, is one of it not the biggest beneficiaries of Xerneas leaving. I'm not a huge fan of physical sets, but special sets are amazing. Fogless sets are pretty cool. R8 brought Resttalk Giratina-O to trios semis which put in quite a bit of work.

| B -> B+ | Offensive Lunala, specs in particular, is a mon which benefits a lot from recent metagame trends. Balance teams are trending bulkier which Lunala feasts on. Yveltal becoming bird jesus isn't ideal for it, but that isn't something that really bothers Lunala. Lunala has always required support, usually in the form of Zygarde and Arceus-Fairy anyways. They are both excellent mons and Arceus-Fairy is better than ever so relying on them for support isn't a huge issue. Specs Lunala also doesn't require Shadow Shield to remain intact to function as a breaker, it is nice thing to have, but Lunala doesn't rely on it to where hazards being present impedes its ability to wallbreak.

| B -> B+ | Similar to Yveltal if this was a personal VR Gothitelle would be higher, somewhere low in A-. Yes Gothitelle is mostly deadweight v HO. It also has 5 teammates to handle that and can still trap DD Ultra Necrozma at least. Some people say Gothitelle is too matchup fishy to be higher than B which is, politely, malarkey. Gothitelle is easier to build consistent/good teams with or more flexible than quite a few mons in A-/B+ (Mega Mewtwo Y, Palkia-Horse, Arceus-Water, Calyrex-I, Zekrom). The only reason it shouldn't be B+ is because we've realized Shadow Tag is uncompetitive and banned it.

| C+ -> B- | Every couple of weeks someone talks about Tangrowth's potential on stall in Dozo's slot. On the rare ocassion where someone actually shows a paste or replay it isn't really convincing. It isn't better or worse since the last slate, but until someone shows a viable stall team without Dozo it should share a subrank with Giratina and Chansey.

| C -> C+ | It semi-requires Gothitelle support, but that isn't really a dealbreaker for me, Gothitelle is a broken mon. Requiring Gothitelle support or fitting on limited structures isn't a huge issue this low in the VR and applies to most of the C rank mons anyways. NeonJolteonWasUsed and Runo are the best people to speak about Arceus-Grass.

|C- -> C+ | It hasn't changed viability wise since the last voting slate but C- is really underselling Psyspam. It is a decent archetype that likely has some developments in the future. There is an argument for B-, but it isn't quite there or flexible enough yet for me.

| UR -> C- | I can find some replays if needed since those are normally required when nominating a mon to be ranked. I'd imagine at this point we are all aware of Mega Tyranitar stall. Mega Tyranitar offers role compression for stall and punishes lazy builders who slap LO Yveltal on their team and call it a day. It isn't a stall mainstay by any stretch but has a niche which isn't replicable. It is similar to Gargancl / Gholdengo as a niche mon which has its place on a couple of teams.

Drops

| S-[2] -> S-[4] | Historically I've thought Ho-Oh was better and that opinion hasn't changed. I'll discuss Ho-Oh a bit more below. It is still a great mon doing what it has always done and should remain S-. Nothing about Zacian-C itself has changed much. Yveltal has just gotten a lot better and it moves up something else has dropped.

| A [1] -> A[2] | The same thing I've said about Zacian-C applies to Arceus. This is a function of me rating Arceus-Fairy highly rather than anything significant changing with Ekiller. It doesn't like Psyspam, but it does like Basculegion. I have a slightly dimmer view of HO than some other people and the drop of one rank is a reflection of that. I'm alright with it retaining the top of A.

| A[5] -> A-[1] | So in Trios HO was spammed to the point where its representation far exceeded its viability. Mega Salamence, the HO staple, was brought just 3 times as of writing this (finals are yet to happen). It didn't actually come out in Anchor9s R1 game though the team it faced was such dogshit that it doesn't matter. Bodi brought it R2 where it trade with a Whirlpool Arceus-Dark. It would have lost that 1v1 anyways if Arceus-Dark ran a good set but this is the type of matchup where you'd expect Mega Salamence to put in a fair bit of work breaking and yet it didn't. Bodi also brought a BO no HO team. Xurkiyee brought in R3 on a HO v R8. R8's team is weird as hell but Mence is always going to struggle to sweep and to some degree break v these fatter balances, even if they're more standard. These sorts of teams usually have adequate means of preventing Mega Salamence from getting out of hand or punching too many holes in the defensive core.

Trios is a small tournament so I've also taken a look at seasonals rounds 7 and later as this was when the Xerneas ban came into effect. Xurkiyee brought Mega Salamence twice in R7. It wasn't really bad here. They really just lost this game purely due to luck. This was LO Zygarde which is a very fishy set that found a perfect matchup against someone who had never seen it. Mega Salamence went down because Outrage crit. Zygarde then lived a roll. The game was truly won by luck and a bad decision to Tera Yveltal. Even ignoring that Mega Salamence didn't really contribute anything. SD TR NDM pretty much solo'd Alphas team that the Xurk should have won the game with or without Mega Salamence. It could have gone crazy g3 if Xurk had just switched to it once Smeargle's sash was broken. Once webs were up it was pretty much gg, but a good showing for Mence if the game wasn't thrown. The only other apperance it made was Aninjadude v Squeeby. Mega Salamence fished for a Body Slam para, didn't get it and died.

So between these two tournaments Mega Salamence was brought 5 times in 65 games post Xerneas ban and didn't really do anything in any of them. Balance has trended a bit fatter and while it still can put in work v HO, it requires precise positioning and a decent matchup. The balance teams that Mega Salamence used to feast on with a little bit of chip are less common these days. After spending a while gathering replays Mega Salamence could justifiably drop lower than A-[1].

| A-[4] -> A-[6]/B+ | This one I'm a little less sure on. All of Palkia-O's previous problems still exist. It isn't good into HO and deadweight v stall. It can be s tier v a lot of balance teams, but it has to click the right move and that move has to hit. Palkia-O could potentially cling to A- due to metagame trends. As mentioned many times at this point, balance is getting fatter and this is something Palkia-O generally appreciates. These fatter balance teams are quite good against most of the meta. These fatter balance teams are also generally far worse into Palkia-O. It finds significantly more entry points v these fatter balances and is harder to force out. It should definitely drop, I'm just not sure how much.

| A-[6] -> B+/B | Honestly fuck building with this mon. You invest into defence to live LO Marshadow Shadow Sneak and still die to CB. Even then it doesn't matter because unless you face HO chances are this is your breaker and it is going to need to come and 3/4 of the time it dies to LO Sneak after rocks anyways. It suffers from Ultra Necrozma demanding attention in the builder and it loses to all the same stuff. It has absurd 4MSS. Without Fire Blast it is incredibly shaky v steels since defensive NDM is real again and FB is FB and MMY cannot afford to miss it. So it has one moveslot left to decide what beats it. FB beats Arceus-Dark 70% of the time and IB deals with Yveltal unless it happens to be Sucker Punch which is fairly common on offensive sets. Oh and now it can't stallbreak at all because Dozo walls it. If this were the end of MMY's issues it would probably be fine to stay at A-. It also gets outsped and OHKOed by Zacian-C and really struggles to break without a boost.

Ultimately you end up with this mon that is quite frail, has incredibly common counterplay that it doesn't reliably handle anyways, and requires a lot of defensive support if it isn't run on HO. It does have good matchups, especially v fatter balances lacking Zacian-C / Marshadow. Ultimately everytime I try and build with this mon end up using some other special breaker. Something like Specs Lunala is better into most non HO teams, requires similar if not less support, hits a lot harder, and actually scares its switchins even if it isn't scouted. Arceus-Dark and Yveltal are scared shitless of Moonblast and Ho-Oh worries about Trick or Tera Ghost 2HKOeing. Yeah and it can Tera Fairy to actually have a good defensive typing and doesn't crumple to a light breeze even if Shadow Shield is broken. MMY could honestly be B-, but I need to be realistic with noms.

| B+ -> B/B- | It isn't a bad mon at all. It only really fits well on HO and is not close to a staple on there. Usage is not the same thing as viability, but Zekrom isn't some stupidly strong mon that requires specific support or a breaker that teammates commonly rely on to help weaken shared checks. At some point results matter and Zekrom doesn't really have many to point to. Adem mentioned at some point it should be C+ and though I don't entirely disagree, it is a bit much for a mon that still has a place on HO even if it is used less than it should be. Zekrom is just really out of place in B+ and I'm a bit surprised that it didn't drop in the last slate.

| B -> C+/C | Everything I said a month ago still applies. If you want consistent screens go w Deo-S. If you want to fish go w/ Grimm. It isn't any worse currently than it was two months ago, it just should have dropped more than one subrank.

| B- -> C-/D | I'm going to assume that the only reason this didn't drop signifcantly further is due to the timing of the last vote. Yeah it is a good answer to LO YV, but that is all it does. It was justifiable when it also handled Xerneas as the role compression was quite valuable to fat balances. Yes it has a unique set of traits but Magearna rarely ever actually make use of them. C- is really just because D might be considered too big of a drop for one slate and countering LO Yveltal is maybe worth something. If it fits on good teams it is Gholdengo/Garganacl levels of specific.

| C+ -> C-/D | Every now and then it has the right four moves to actually do some work. Even that lightest of praise is probably overselling MMX. In the Xerneas meta you could handwave away its 4MSS to some degree as Stone Edge handled Yveltal and Ho-Oh and Giratina-O was uncommon. I don't see how you can do that now. Similar to Magearna, maybe there is some combination of moves that enables MMX to maintain a sliver of viability, but I just don't see it. It has probably 8 moves that it wants to run and even if it could run them all at the same time it would still be mid.

| C -> C- | Similar to Dozo this is a consistency thing. Melmetal should be the same subrank as Hatterene. I'm not a believer in TR so that is dropping it to C- though I don't care enough to argue against it retaining its C rank and moving Hatterene up a rank. Cresselia is not mandatory on TR like Hatterene is it being a subrank lower is fine even if Melmetal really wants Healing Wish support due it commonly running out of PP on DIB.

| C- -> D | Is being a mediocre suicide rocker for HO that is annoying for a couple of turns enough to justify ranking this. It is appealing as a breaker but it just a bit short on power to do that even with support while also having 4MSS. I've tried to make it work as a breaker and Landorus unfortunately just doesn't get it done consistently even with an entire team dedicated to supporting it. Yeah HO actually wants a mega sometimes, but Mega Diancie prevents Shuckle from getting up webs and Exca can get rocks up v TR teams. I'm struggling to see how that tiny niche is enough to keep it ranked.

S/A Ranks w/ these noms

S+
S
S-
A+
A
A-

Discussion Points

| Where to put it? | During the Xerneas meta if I did not run Ho-Oh it was more often than not because I built a team with the express intent to use other hazard removal. Strangely, defensive Ho-Oh sets are not worse than they were during the Xerneas meta. If anything, they are slightly better. During the Xern meta Ho-Oh has a tendency to be overwhelmed, particularly v HO, due to being tasked with so much defensively. It would often be tasked with: hard checking Xerneas and Zacian-C, removing hazards, and often soft checking something else as well. It could do all of these things, but doing so consistently was incredibly difficult. Particularly so when it is the only good Zacian check that isn't deleted by Tera Blast Ground.

This lead to HO v Ho-Oh balance matchups often being quite fishy and matchup being the deciding factor far more often than in game play. Xerneas leaving the tier has signficantly eased the burden placed on Ho-Oh defensively. It is far more consistent at removing hazards while remaining very beatable via offensive pressure. The ability to more easily drop WW for BB makes it far less free to switch into for Primal Kyogre, Eternatus, and opposing Ho-Oh.

Furthermore, offensive sets are far easier to run presently. During the Xern meta Ho-Oh needed every EV possible and running an offensive set made Ho-Oh far shakier into the mons it is supposed to be checking. Not having to check Xern in addition to half the metagame gives Ho-Oh a lot of breathing room and the freedom to more frequently deviate from defensive sets. I was goobed by a Band Ho-Oh on a fake stall team in seasonals.

The reason I'm not sure where Ho-Oh should be is that its competition has improved rather than Ho-Oh being worse itself. Yveltal and Giratina-O went from good, but constricting and at times, inconsistent hazard removal to excellent. Ho-Oh was and is the best option for hazard removal generally, but it is easier than ever to build good teams using other options. To what degree, if any, should this factor in?

|No Change | This an honourable mention of sorts. Defensive sets have gone from bordering on unviable to somewhere in the range of alright to decent. Offensive sets can take advantage of Yveltal's ubiquity to remove it. NDM is here rather than in the noms section because it seemed a bit high in the last slate but its current rank feels about right. I'm wondering what others think about the lion currently?

|A-[5]->?| Deoxys-S is still the best HO lead, but it faces severe competition. The physically defensive RH set that has been picking up steam recently does do very well into opposing HO leads. However, teams are more frequently opting for other HO leads and are doing so sucessfully. Glimmora has certainly solidified its place in the tier as an alternative for Hstack HOs at this point while also being a mainstay on the trendy Psyspam teams where people seem to generally perfer Glimmora's ability to puke out hazards rather webs unless they run Basculegion. I'm not really sure where Deoxys-S should go, but a slight drop is appropriate. Whether that is lower in A- or B+ I'm not sure.

|B+ or A-?| I've been a Ray to A- advocate for a while. Right now I'm not so sure. Ray both loves and hates the changes post Xerneas. The meta is trending towards both HO and bulkier balances. Band Rayquaza is kinda trash into HO since it only ever wants to use Extreme Speed if it is going to be the last turn of the game. LO Ray does fit well on HO, but it certainly isn't a staple and does not fit on the currently popular Psyspam. Band Ray in general does feast on these bulkier balances, but Eternatus being on most of them while being capable of running both offensive and defensive sets is not something Rayquaza likes. It is self sufficient and splashable to justify A-, but is it consistent enough?

|B+ -> A-?| Really just would like to foster discussion on this. Ditto, similar to Alo is a mon between tiers for me. Great mon, but are the consistency issues too much to keep it from A-?

| B -> B+?| I'm on the fence whether Alo is B or B+. When discussing some stuff with R8 around the time of the last slate I was asked why I thought Alo should be B instead of B+. My response was that I wanted to give it some time and see how Alo teams developed and how the meta handled them. Presently I'm on the fence though Alo is certainly closer to B+ than B. It is simultaneously freeing and constricting to build with. Its ceiling is somewhere around the bottom of A- but it definitely is not there currently. I'm wondering what everyone else thinks?

| I Don't Know | Initially had this nommed to drop to C+, but then thought about it more and it could be anywhere from B to C+ and I could be convinced. Last Respects is stupid and uncompetitive, but Basculegion isn't good or consistent enough to ban it. Adem please get this mon to B/B+ level so we can ban it. Stupid Fish.

///These all in the same subrank feels wrong. Personally I'd move Mega Diancie and Glimmora to B, and keep one of Smeargle or Shuckle in B- and move the other to C+. Other than Glimmora deserving B I don't have a strong opinion on the rest. Would appreciate it if y'all gave your thoughts.

| C -> C+ | Think it should rise a subrank as scarf did put in some work for R8 in Trio and that is another set it can viably run beyond Adem's intial nomination of Rocky Helmet. I don't think it is a world beater or anything, but it is an appealing option for enough teams that C+ is fine. I could see it potentially being B- in the future but doubt it would rise beyond that. What do y'all think?

| C- -> D | It gets up rocks v TR. Treads was ranked last slate because it largely outclassed Excadrill. This is really the only thing Excadrill has over it. Initially had it in the nom section, but thought about it a bit more and we really had and continue to have some real dogshit mons ranked so maybe that is enough to a niche to remain ranked.

| C- -> D | Neon discussed what it could do the other day and my memory is failing me a bit. One of the things mentioned was checking Ekiller which commonly runs both Taunt and Tera Ghost which bypass anything Skarmory would try to do to it. I've barely seen this mon in months and everytime it pops up it doesn't do squat, but that may be the teams I build. I'd put it in the nom section but I can't in good faith with the level of uncertainty I have.
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